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Re: "the man" at Utilikilts [to Loren] -- Saturday, April 27, 2002 at 12:53:37 (PDT)
Re: "the man" at Utilikilts -- Sat, 27 Apr 2002 03:58:45 -0700
rivets & burrs [from Michelle Steed] -- Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:30:47 -0700
bbq sunday, noon, anyone? -- Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:54:40 -0700
Copper quotes -- Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:56:22 -0700
Supports -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:09:41 -0700
Pedestal sculptures -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:02:51 -0700
Copper -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:56:44 -0700
Utilikilts label -- comments? -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:39:30 -0700
Heads up: Kiki's domains are moving -- Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 09:05:30 (PDT)
Filming heads-up -- Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 09:04:30 (PDT)
Water -- Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 09:03:24 (PDT)
Bowl sizes! [egads!] -- Friday, April 19, 2002 at 14:47:37 (PDT)
OT: Re: [dpw-list] 55gal drum strength [To Bob Stahl] -- Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:38:15 -0700
Fwd: Questionaire/ contracts [from LadyBee] -- Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:30:28 -0700
My personal story about The KeyHole -- Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:19:45 -0700
The KeyHole! -- Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:16:17 -0700
[from LadyBee] CONGRATULATIONS! -- Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:21:47 -0700
[to Patricia, the fire dancer] Egeria, the big firefall -- Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 22:07:16 (PDT)
Regular meetings: sunday and wednesday -- Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:08:31 -0700
Meeting "notes" -- please read! -- Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:48:52 -0700
Fwd: Re: Egeria on top -- Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:46:44 -0700
he fish are cool, but how about... -- Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:07:31 -0700
Shipping -- Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:11:47 (PDT)
Weight of the bowls [was Re: Does size matter?] -- Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:11:28 (PDT)
Does size matter? -- Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:10:49 (PDT)
Fire info sent to Crimson -- Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 15:33:26 (PDT)
The unsolvable list -- Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 15:30:21 (PDT)
Utilikilts -- Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 15:08:57 (PDT)
Morning Thoughts: Assembly on the playa -- Sun, 07 Apr 2002 13:33:17 -0700
[From Loren] Re: Egeria: copper part 2 -- TIGing copper!! -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 22:29:23 (PST)
[The religion of copper...] Egeria: TIG pictures -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 21:29:17 (PST)
Egeria: copper part 2 -- TIGing copper!! -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 21:00:51 (PST)
Egeria: copper part 1 -- copper warehouse!! -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 20:39:02 (PST)
Egeria stones -- Monday, April 01, 2002 at 16:30:32 (PST)
Egeria NEWSFLASH! -- Monday, April 01, 2002 at 15:44:58 (PST)

Re: "the man" at Utilikilts [to Loren] -- Saturday, April 27, 2002 at 12:53:37 (PDT)

At 08:43 AM 4/27/2002 -0700, Loren Carpenter wrote:
The plate looks really nice!
I would still remove the 'http://' part of the url.  All you need is the domain name.
They work just by themselves.
IMHO it's a bit cluttered.
Well, I'm kinda doing that on purpose.  I'm trying to mimic the Levi's leather patch on the back of their jeans.  "Genuine" and stuff like that.  It's meant to be a bit cluttered.
Trying to find some pics on-line of the label...
Here's a good one:
And I'm starting to think that the waistband is the best place to attach it...

Re: "the man" at Utilikilts -- Sat, 27 Apr 2002 03:58:45 -0700

>By chance, I had the pleasure of speaking with Steve of Utilikilts. He was
>very friendly and had said that you had emailed him a few times regarding
>your project. By the way...the people at the company /store are soooo cool
>and friendly! Here is the info I got from the visit.....
>He says that he can't put on any different colored snaps then how it comes.
>Even thought he carries the black's just too much follow up/extra
>work to keep track of which ones are silver and which ones are
>on and so on. Not even the workers get to do anything different.
Understood.  So we'll work hard to keep this simple for them.
>There is a back pocket on the traditional kilts that has a flap. That might
>be a good place to put the label. The flap has embroidered name of UK and a
>fancy design...(covering it up almost became an issue before I spoke with
>Steve...another sales associate was saying "NO way!..That is our only form
>of advertisement") So, no worries...Steve is cool with it.
I'd rather not cover it up if possible.  Looking at the web page, it looks like most all kilts have *two* pockets.  [Except the original and tuxedo.]  Let's put it on the second pocket if possible.  For those without a pocket, is there room to put the label *above* the UK label?
Is that possible, do you think, or not?
I'd also think that having the label on a flap might make the edges more vulnerable.  If it's on a solid flat place on the garment -- like near the waistband or over the buttock -- it'll lay better and won't be felt, like carrying a credit card in your back pocket.  If it's on a flap, the flap could flip up and bend and catch on things.  Just a thought.
>Steve mentioned that you wanted to paint the fabric copper? If you plan on
>doing that...he suggested using the "Painter's" kilt...because the fabric
>will take the paint better (it is dyeable) versus the "workmen's" which has
>a teflon coating to prevent stains. He said the tie dye lady could possibly
>come up with a color...if you want more info...we have to talk to him (Steve
>or Emily) regarding custom stuff. They are the contacts.
Hmm!  Certainly the painter's kilt is cheaper.  I like the workman's kilt *style*...  more pockets!  I'll think about it...
>They gave me some good sized swatches of the black and brown workmen's
>fabric (they feel tough!)which I can send to you.
>Steve gave me a company name and number in Ohio that also supplies the
>pieces (no minimum orders ro accounts needed) and there is a special tool
>that is needed to attach them. I will order their catalog today and let you
>know what I find!
Great!  We *definitely* want to get the machine to attach them.  In my looking for a metal stamp, I'm also going to look into getting a die cut for the rivet hammer thingy -- so the spiral is simply stamped into each rivet as it is attached!  This might even be hand-makable by me. :)
I got some rivets from a hardware store -- they're made for fastening metal, not cloth.  They weren't all that useful.  Though one two-piece kind seemed to do reasonably well.  I'll send you some of them -- give me your address.
I called some metal stamping places.  They're not what you'd think.  They stamp out auto parts to custom specifications -- meaning cut the metal into weird shapes.  The guy there sent me to a place that makes nameplates out of magnesium.  The guy didn't think magnesium is strong enough [rightly's like aluminum] but gave me a sample to play with anyway.  We tried stamping the copper with it.  Here's some pics:
We stamped this at 1500 psi.  2000psi killed the image in one stamp.  I'm wondering if we lowered it further to 1000psi if we could get more stamps out of it yet still get an image.  I'm hoping to rub something into the impression that colors the copper black [like sulfur.]
It's not that bad, though there is some "pitting" -- even in the first stamp.  [You can see what I mean if you look at the main body of the letters in the "image" pictures.  Meaning, the pressed letters look lumpy on their face...
But if we can get 10 reasonable presses out of them, then all we'd need is 15 of them...  So I'm going to talk to him again and see what they can do.
I talked to someone else who suggested going to a trophy engraver and just get them to do them all.  Might also be an option.
I'd rather have a steel die, and I have some other leads I'm going to follow up on monday.
I made a more detailed design that I like a lot.  Hopefully, we'll be able to do this design!
That's all on this end!  We're getting closer!

rivets & burrs [from Michelle Steed] -- Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:30:47 -0700

I spoke with Universal Fastners today. Here is the info I got regarding
Minimum order: 200,000 pieces
Minimum invoice: $200
Custom tooling charge: $350
Is this in your price range?
They gave me a # for an LA distributor called S&J inorder to get info on
ordering plain burrs (thought i would find out...just incase the above is
out of range). Here is the info from them:
Samples to be sent of burrs:
finishes: copper, copper oxide, and ebony.
Dome and  Capped profiles.
Samples to be sent of rivets:
aluminum and copper. (aluminum is less expensive, I was told)
Standard and long lengths.
I did not ask about exact pricing yet...but I was told that they are priced
by the
1,000 pcs.
No minimum order required (that's good!)
Let me know if I should get further info regarding the custom design for the
And if you can email me your address inorder to send these items off to you
as well.
I will go to Utilikilts today to see if I can get fabric swatches and to ask
about requesting black and copper oxide (why not? while I am at it) finishes
for snaps.

bbq sunday, noon, anyone? -- Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:54:40 -0700

I've got a copy of the contract and I'm not completely satisfied with it and I want to talk with folks about it.  I'll also bring the model again and we can talk about what we'll tackle first when we get money.
Dan Foygel is a friend of mine taking a low temp casting class and is interested in helping us figure out how to cast all of these stones.  Yay!  We really should get going on this ASAP since we can do some things with a small amount of money.  And that's what I have.  A small amount. :)
I also want to work some on making the burning flowers and stuff for the lilypad pond.  Anyone can help with that who wants.
Bring something for the grill and maybe a drink and we'll talk some about what's been going on.
PS Sandy will be filming the meeting as always!

Copper quotes -- Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:56:22 -0700

Talked to Pouneh of the Flaming Lotus Girls about copper today.  She found Sequoia to be the cheapest -- I still haven't called them.
We're going to combine copper orders since it'll be a significant savings.  She also wrote Jeremy Lutes who's working on the big copper lilypad pond with LEDs and interactive fish!  Super-cool project!  Combining a big order will help us all.

Supports -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:09:41 -0700

Snook and I talked about supporting the fountain.
His suggestion was to put I-beams in there.  Not the first person to suggest this, so I'm taking it seriously.
In the end, it seemed best to me to rim the inside of the barrel with rolled steel pipes [not cast iron since they're brittle.]  These should be *very* strong -- a structure like corrugated cardboard.  Also, we can make the pipes wide enough so they reach to where the middle supports would come down, thus supporting the middle bowl support directly from the bottom.  And along those lines, the middle support could support the top this way, therefore the bottom support goes even further in.
Okay, that's probably too much hand-waving to make sense. :)  But in any case, there's solutions out there that will work, and are simple.
We also talked about water again.  He's very confident he could get me water if I needed it.  I'm really no longer worried about water.  I just need to make it happen.
He's also talking about helping assemble the fountain on the playa the week before the Event.  I'm pretty excited and flattered by this offer!  He will be a great resource!

Pedestal sculptures -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:02:51 -0700

[Sorry for this quick spam...had a busy week and had no time to send out updates!  So now you get them all at once!]
Myrrhia and I had a great phone conversation about the sculptures.  We've settled on these:
Fish for the bottom pedestal
Salamanders for the middle one
Birds for the top one
Bust of Egeria on the very top
    with flame/water crown, and *gushing* tears from her eyes!
I think this will be *fantastic*!  Water/boundary/sky.  Good stuff!
All of them will be tails-up and fire/water sprays from their mouthes.
Myrrhia was at first thinking of leaving them pure white after firing, but now with the birds, she's thinking again about glazes and *colors*!
[Quick thought -- Myrrhia, are you listening? :) -- maybe keep mostly pure white, but use *flecks* of colors.  Red dots on the salamanders.  Hmmm..and then white birds with red head, red wingtips, white fish with red markings?  Hmmm!  White will certainly reflect firelight better.]

Copper -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:56:44 -0700

So I called Copper & Brass as well as Coast Aluminum for a quote on the copper.
I called C&B first.  For 101, it's *expensive* [still within budget, though], but the guy suggested I need only 110 -- less pure, but only by a tiny bit [99.99% pure vs. 99.9% pure.]  101 is half again as expensive as 110!!  101 OFE is Oxygen Free Electronic, but he said I'd lose the oxygen free bit once I take a torch to it.  Also, since we don't care about electronic applications, this is probably fine.  The price wasn't *quite* as good as we thought, but it's still far better than Dan Das Mann quoted for Sequoia, who I'll call tomorrow.  C&B couldn't sell half-sheets, so we're looking at 7 sheets of 3x8 [instead of the 6 3x8, 1 3x4 that I'd rather have -- so we might have a big chunk left over!  Good for FLG flowers for the lilypond I'm also building!]
Called Coast Aluminum next.  They didn't have 050, but they do have 043 and 062.  043 is cheaper, but they are more expensive per pound than C&B.  The lady was very helpful and cheerful though, and I asked if she had samples of 110 for welding tests and she said she'd see if she could find some.  [Greg, can I come over again sometime this week? :) ]  I just want to be sure it's the same for welding as the 101 -- I'm sure it is, but it's a lot of copper for it to be wrong!
If we go with 043, we can get this in "coils" or rolls through C&B, and they're probably again cheaper.  Not sure if there's one length of coil, but it would make welding easier before of fewer seams.  We could even fit pieces much better because we could cut ends on the diagonal.
I'll call Sequoia tomorrow, and maybe pick up those samples from Coast tomorrow too.

Utilikilts label -- comments? -- Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:39:30 -0700
Trying to keep it simple...
Q: Does the little drawing "read"?  [One opinion says "no"...]
The URL is hard to read, I know.  But I don't think it's important from a distance, only up close.  But it should be readable up close.  This will depend on how good the stamp turns out...  I'll talk with some metal stamping folks tomorrow.
Again, Abaddon is my choice :) but it's hard to read.  I'd like to bold it, but there's no bold in this font.  I'll work on it.  But in general, this is the idea.
Thoughts?  Should it say Egeria somewhere or is this okay?
Throw it out and redo it? :)

Heads up: Kiki's domains are moving -- Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 09:05:30 (PDT)

Just want to give you all a heads-up that I'm moving hosting plans.  This *should* be a seamless process with no noticeable glitches, but you know how things are... :)
I'm *really* busy right now, so this might happen anytime before the end of the month, but definitely by May.  I'll send another email the day before we do the actual switch, so if things seem funny, just hang tight!
Once things are moved over, I'll send out another email to test and make sure things are perfect.
Wish me luck that this is easy!
PS This new hosting plan costs less per *year* than what my old hosting plan cost in *two months*!  Not only that, but my space is nearly unlimited!  Excellent, since I'm running out of space on all my domains *again*!  [Digital camera habit... :) ]  And as Egeria [my Burning Man project] heats up, I'll need the space for more pictures.  Yay!

Filming heads-up -- Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 09:04:30 (PDT)

BTW, I want to re-iterate that Sandy Gentile is filming this project so you'll probably see him around with the camera.  Just ignore him, and we'll all get used to it over time.  The footage we've gotten so far is pretty cool!  This will be a fun film when it's done!
He has a release form for you to sign.  We'll put it up on-line so you can read it at your leisure too.  It's no big deal, really, he just wants your permission to film -- all that legal stuff so you don't later get mad and sue. :)  He's not doing this for profit, but for fun, like us!
He'll be giving everyone a copy of the film when it's done too!

Water -- Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 09:03:24 (PDT)

Just wanted to give you all the update on water.
There's so many backup plans that I pretty much feel we're set.
I'm pretty sure we can get water from the water truck people as I have every year -- we'll bring them sushi, per their request!
If not, Snook has a 1000gal water truck and can get water locally.
If not, he can get water from Empire.
If not, he can get water from Reno
He also has a friend who just got a 2000gal water truck who can also help.
Christopher Schardt is Art Liaison with the DPW this year and he said, "you're the KeyHole.  I'll *make sure* you get water."
I also know Will and Bill Carson and Billy Bob in the DPW.  They should also help.  [Though, I owe Will a firefall on the Ranch near Gerlach, and I'd probably have to make some progress towards this to make him happy -- if I did, water would be guaranteed.]
At the very outside worst-case, I bring garbage cans and buy water myself in Empire.  Yucky -- esp. if this turns out to be a daily need -- but better than no project at all. :)
In any case, I'm pretty darn confident that we'll get water out there.
The goal -- as is the goal with The Cauldron -- is to be set up as soon as possible so we can fill up early.  The water trucks have to be empty before they ride back to Reno -- why carry heavy water back to Reno?  Other artists need water as the week goes on, so the earlier we can get it, the better.
Anyway, just want to let you know the water situation is pretty well water-tight. :)

Bowl sizes! [egads!] -- Friday, April 19, 2002 at 14:47:37 (PDT)

--Would she just *decide* already?? :) --
Okay, I decided. :)
  The bowls will be 10', 7', 3'6"
I know this has been a dumb anxiety, but now it's over. :)  I've decided.
If we can get 4'x10' copper sheets [48"x120"] then we need 3 sheets 4x10, 1 sheet 2x8, 1 sheet 3x7.  These would require 2 10' welds, 2 7' welds, 1 3' weld approx.
If we can't and have to stick with 3x8, then we need 6 sheets 3x8, 1 sheet 3x4.  These would require 4 10' welds, 3 7' welds, 1 3'' weld [though these welds are a bit shorter than the ones above because they're farther from the center of the circle.]
Even at Dan Das Mann's estimations of cost, we're a good bit below budget.  And I'm pretty sure we can get it for less.  Shew!
Myrrhia, I'll think more on the supports -- which is what you *really* would rather know anyway -- but I gotta run right now and get ready for a show in Pacifica!
Kiki -- big load off [but now a big load on the fountain... ;) ]

OT: Re: [dpw-list] 55gal drum strength [To Bob Stahl] -- Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:38:15 -0700

Thanx for such a great reply.  Much of this I've thought of and have solutions for, but you're making me realize the problems might be even worse than my worst disaster-fantasies. :)
Some of those solutions are hazy until I start building stuff and get a good look at what I've got.  [But *before* it's too late to change the designs, of course. :) ]  The support stuff is probably going to end up much beefier when I'm done than I'd prefer visually...  I just have to emotionally be convinced of it's necessity. :)
>Okay -- I'm guessing about 800 pounds. That's about the
>weight of one more drum, filled with sand.
Sand weighs twice as water?  [water = ~8 pounds/gal]
The Cauldron firefall has a ~100 pound stainless steel top bowl and about 90 gallons of water = ~800 pounds total, and it *doesn't budge*.  And it has piping holes cut in it.  That drum is *solid*.  I'm certain it could hold far more weight with no trouble.
I like your idea of finding a drum's support ability by *experiment* -- egads! it's a technical challenge in itself!  Esp. since we don't have a forklift. :)  I'll think about it -- I like challenges like this. :)
[Okay, here's a possible idea, in fact...  Find a way to put the Cauldron bottom bowl on top.  It holds 450 gallons.  Stick a hose in and watch. :) I think I'd do this once I replace the bowl, though, and have an old one to screw up. :) ]
>Er... in other words: How much does each level weigh, in
>pounds, loaded with water? How much does the whole thing
As yet to be completely determined, but, okay, let's figure a ballpark [note: approx 8 gals/cubic foot, and approx. 8 pounds/gal "pint's a pound the world around" and all that :) ]:
bottom bowl: ~9' of bowl with any real depth, 8"-10" of depth.  So 4.5^2 x pi x 10/12', = ~53 cu ft = ~424 gal = 3391 pounds.  The bowl itself is another 100 pounds  [Jusus...okay, that's more than I was guessing...I've dealt enough with volumes of water, I should know better...]
middle bowl: ~6' of bowl, of 6" depth.  So 3 x pi x 1/2 = ~14 cu ft = ~113 gal = ~904 pounds, plus, I dunno, maybe 80 pounds of bowl?
top bowl: ~3' of bowl, 4" depth.  So 1.5^2 x pi x 1/3 = ~2.5 cu ft = ~18.84 gal = ~150 pounds, plus, say, 50 pounds of bowl?
sculptures: 12 fish sculptures, dunno maybe 150 pounds?  top bust made of clay.  Dunno, 50 pounds?
Total: ~5000 pounds
Okay, yeah, that's a fuck of a lot. :)  [Water is so frikkin *heavy*!!!]
And, um, I also have to run the piping through the middle, so, yeah, the bottom drum's structure will be compromised as well.  [Other option: run the piping underground through the middle -- a bit of complication there, though...but doable if necessary.]
Okay, so yeah, I'll do some serious redesigning of the supports.  And smaller bowls are looking appealing now... :)
How about concentric drums?  Like, cut the lid and bottom off a drum and coil it up and stick it inside the support?  That's a way to have multiple drums without them being visible.  Let's say one drum can hold 1000 pounds.  If we put 5 concentric drums in there, it should support all of it.  Is that a dumb idea?
The Romans can do it, so it *is* possible!!  I'm not giving up! :)  But looks like I have some serious thoughts for today. :)  These things need some nailing down anyway, so that's good.
>How are you attaching the copper to its supports, and the
>bottom support to the ground?
The top drums will rest on the bowl, but the spiral supports will be attached to the bowls with bolts.  [Not welding because it has to be disassembleable.]  The upper supports will attach at the same place as the supports below so the copper itself isn't compromised.  This will also act as a guy wire to help hold it down, since all the spiral supports will be bolted through a line -- a "load path" I've been told. :)
>What changes are you willing to make? Just saying "no" isn't
>telling us much.
Well, fountains typically have a narrowish support in the center.  Putting three drums with plywood under it is not visually acceptable to me unless absofuckinglutly necessary and then I'll cry anyway. :)
My compromise was the outer supports, and I think this is the best way to go.  I'd beef those up before I'd put more barrels in there.
In fact, I had originally wanted to do vanes of steel, until I picked up some steel plate and realized that was too heavy to handle!  But plywood is a great option.  I might go with my original thought and make the vanes out of plywood...I'll have to think about that more.
The problem is so much of the weight is in the middle anyway, I've got to find a way to distribute the weight out to the supports...  [Hopefully, ribs will help with this.]
>It looks like too much for single-drum supports + gravity,
>simply because the wind itself may tend to push all the
>weight onto one edge of the drum, pinching or crushing it.
>Or blow the whole thing apart, if the levels aren't attached.
>The bowls are going to act like airfoils.
Yeah, I know.  I'm trying to avoid actual guy-wires, but might have to go with them anyway.
>Raveboy and ravegirl, who went to sleep underneath, are
>suddenly crushed.
Would that be a loss? ;) ;) ;)
>If it were my fountain, rather than those lightweight
>curlicues, I'd put more substantial supports out there --
>steel posts, steel plate or plywood fins, or something.
Yeah.  My heart is attached to the spiral shapes, but, yeah, those act like springs and aren't very study, even if I use something like 3/4" steel rod.  If I put a straight section with them, they will look like dollar signs. :-p  But I have some ideas along those lines, like putting straight pieces behind and in front of them...
I'm thinking of doing ribs that run from center to edge all the way around, then put supports near the base, and near the spirals.
I'm also thinking of putting *two* spirals together, back-to-back, which will help prevent the springiness -- so the support is more triangle-shaped than round and compressible.
>I'd figure out a way to attach each level that wouldn't
>spoil the profile, and root it down to a few 3' or 4'
>stakes driven crosswise. I'd set the bottom drum on a
>circle of steel plate or a couple thicknesses of ply,
>and stake the plate tot he ground.
Kinda hard to do through pond liner. :-p  But I'll see if there's ways to do it -- like, since the water in the bottom area below the fountain will be only a couple inches deep, then if I bring the pond liner up, say 3", we're fine.
I have a feeling I'm going to be getting good at pond liner patch and cutting pieces... :)
>Maybe put a circle of six or eight round steel pipe posts,
>or round wood posts (e.g. peeler fenceposts) around the
>outside. Chain or cable run down to the ground at six or
>eight points along the edge might also work. Could attach
>these at the ground level using a pair of 2' or 3' steel
>stakes driven crosswise, just below the ground surface.
>But solid supports that work in tension and compression
>might be better.
I'd prefer that, just because I don't want people to have to duck under cables...
>Think about the BRC spires -- each one is held upright
>by four stakes, and a few of those blow down every time
>a windstorm comes up. Your fountain is going to attract
>much more wind force than a spire.
Indeed.  Though it's got a good bit of weight to help hold it down.
Thanx so much for the comments!  It's given me a lot to think about!  I'll let you know how it goes.  And sorry to be so off topic here.  Don't mean to start a long thread about my project on the DPW list.  Thanx for replying here.  In the end, we'll probably have to deal with eachother on this anyway.  So it *better* not fall apart -- for your sake as much as mine!  heehee! :) :) :)
PS It's official, BTW, this firefall is the KeyHole piece!

Fwd: Questionaire/ contracts [from LadyBee] -- Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:30:28 -0700

Our techs tell me the art questionaire might be functional again as of later
today, so stay tuned and please keep checking it. We've all been focused on
the move and the new office is chaotic, as expected. Having to deal with
relocating the office has pushed back our process, so contracts won't be
finalized and ready to go out until next week sometime. And as Larry,
Crimson, Marian, Harley and  I will be in New York for several Burning Man
events - - starting next Tuesday, I won't be
dealing with contracts until I return on May 2. At that time I'll send out
another email to all of you about coming in to sign your contract and to
discuss your project. Contract signing will happen during the weeks of May 6
and May 13.  I'll be mailing contracts to those of you who live outside the
Bay area and I"ll be calling you as well to go over our expectations of you
in terms of cleanup and responsibility on the playa.  Grant payments should
commence in mid-May so those of you who requested May 1 payments will have
to hang on until then.
In New York I'll be speaking at White Columns - - about the art of Burning Man, and showing
slides of work on the playa back to 1992. We're expecting a big turnout from
the New York Burning Man group and I'm hoping that artists who have never
been to the event will turn out to see what we're doing. Apparently Burning
Man is now well known in New York and the art establishment no longer looks
down its nose at us, as they used to. As I dropped out of the art world in
1987 after a grueling decade in New York, it's quite ironic and pleasing to
me that I'm returning in this capacity. I'm hoping the slide show will
generate a lot of excitement as most of the work on the playa has not been
seen by artists in New York and I believe the diversity and quality of the
work will make an impression.
Thanks for your patience!
Curator, Burning Man

My personal story about The KeyHole -- Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:19:45 -0700

1998 was my first year at Burning Man.  The KeyHole piece was The One Tree -- a giant copper tree that spilled water from its branches, and at night also had flames coming from its branches.  This piece totally blew me away.
In 1999, when I was working on the Cauldron, I wanted it to stand where The One Tree stood -- "it's fire and water, like The One Tree," I thought to myself.  Little did I know this was THE most prestigious position to have art at Burning Man!!  I loved Orbit, but it just wasn't the same *beacon* in the night that The One Tree was.  It just didn't have the same impact.
After Burning Man 2000, Larry Harvey was at Rachel and Loren's Recompression party at their house.  The Cauldron was there, and Larry took me aside and said he wanted a firefall for in front of Center Camp, and asked me if I knew what The KeyHole was.  heehee!    He said he was thinking something with multiple tiers, and I lost it!  I had wanted the *exact same thing*!  "Like an Italian fountain...but on fire!" I said.  We were on the same page.
So I got to work, brainstorming, planning, designing.  Then Scott proposed!  I tried working on both, but I was mostly neglecting the wedding.  So I had to decline Larry's offer.  Of course, I was heart-broken, but knew it was the right decision -- the wedding was great!
After Burning Man, LadyBee said they were still interested, and I was ready!
And here we are!
IM[rather egotistic]O, I don't feel that KeyHole art has really had nearly the impact as The One Tree had.  I've *loved* the previous KeyHole pieces -- don't get me wrong!!  But The One Tree stopped my heart and took my breath away.  Okay, yeah, it was my first year...  But The Three Faces by Dan Das Mann in 2000, or the Rib Cage by Jenne Giles in 2000, or the Temple of Tears by David Best in 2001, or "Flock" [the headless root-like thing] by Michael Christian in 2001 had far more impact, and breath-taking glory than the KeyHole pieces.  This is why, I think, when people that have started going to Burning Man *after* 1998 say, "what's the KeyHole??"
I want to blow people away.
I want people who's first year this is to have their breath taken away.
I want this piece to be *remembered* and *talked about* and to be the orientation point that people look across the playa at it to see where they are, like the One Tree was...
I want to pictures of it with the Man in the background to be those iconic, signature photos of Burning Man you see in Wired or MTV.
This means a *lot* to me.
Okay, I'm done raving. :)

The KeyHole! -- Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:16:17 -0700

Well, it looks like now it's official: I can tell you that Egeria is the KeyHole art piece!!!!!
What does that mean?  It's placed where the road from the Man meets the road around Center Camp.  This is *the* most prestigious place to have artwork at Burning Man!
Previous KeyHole artwork has been:
1997: "Temporal Decompostion" by Jim Mason -- a 14' ice ball sundial with frozen clocks in it.
1998: "The One Tree" by Dan Das Mann -- a 15' [I think] tall copper tree that drips water from its branches.  At night, some branches are also on fire.
1999: "Orbit" by Michael Christian -- a 6' [I think] globe of concentric spheres of metal creature cutouts.
2000: "The Stock Puppets" by Jim Mason -- life-sized puppets with TV heads that go up and down in reaction to the stock market.  Note: this project didn't get completed at the Event *or* at the following Decompression party...It was finally finished summer last year for SIGgraph [annual computer graphics convention.] heh heh heh  I rib Jim about this -- it's a sore point... :)
2001: "Mandala" [I forget the actual name] by Jenne Giles -- a birdcage sitting area, with circle mandalas each symbolizing one of the 7 ages of Man, which can be turned to line up for a view of the Man in the distance.
This means more to me than you can possibly understand.

[from LadyBee] CONGRATULATIONS! -- Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:21:47 -0700

Greetings Burning Man 2002 grant winners!!!
Thanks to all of you for coming up with such great projects. I know I say
this every year, but the art will be spectacular this year!!!! The playa
will be swimming in electro-luminescent and fire-breathing
creatures of the deep; at least two fully-rigged sailing ships will navigate
our dusty seas; siren songs will call unwary sailors to the abyss and Lake
Lahonton will be dotted with bouys, grottos, lilypads, lotus ponds, islands,
seashells and pearls. Life jackets recommended!
The following are the projects we funded:
Hippcampus by Mardi Storm     Linguistic Islands by Travis Ortiz     Neon
Squid by Jerry Matheny     Jellyfish by Susan Robb    Playa Pearls by Fritz
Liebhardt    Cafe entrance gate by Finley Fryer    Sea Snail Ferris Wheel by
Teiwaz    Fish Tales/Grunion Spawn by Annie Hallatt    Carpal Tunnel by Bob
Carlson   The New World by Daniel Watts  Ocean Muse-Arama by Marshall
Virello    Grotto Light, a navigational aid for lost souls by David Biggs
Ship to Ship, the intergalactic "Aldis Lamp" by Tim Black      Aural Reef
Project by the Woo-Woo Field  (Portland)
The Leviathan by Radiant Atmospheres   El-wire Whale Encounter by Joey Bard
and Danya Parkinson     ZeArc (Ark) by Justin Rodda     Giant Octopus by the
Madagascar Institute
(New York)   Fire Island by the Flaming Lotus Girls   Sirens by Deidre de
Franceaux                         Temple of WaterBoy by Marque Cornblatt
The Nausts (Directional Vessels of Fire) by
Charlie Smith    The Whale by Tom Kennedy, Pete Goldie and Dana Albany
  Water Lilies by Jenne Giles and Paul Cezewski    LilyPond by Jeremy Lutes
Egeria, the Keyhole Firefall by Kiki Pettit     ThermoKraken by David Andres
La Contessa (16th century Spanish  galleon) by the Extra Action Marching
Ark of the Nereids by Pepe Ozan    Rubber Ducky by Aaron Muszalski  Temple
of Joy by David Best   Lighthouse Lasers by Russel Wilcox   Fire Cannons by
Alexander Rose
Interesting statistics:
Of 58 proposals, we funded 34.  19are by men, 6 by women, and 8 by
mixed-gender groups.
7 are mobile, 10 incorporate fire, and 4 are technology based. Eleven of
these artists have been funded at least once before, and 21 are new to
Burning Man funding.
And now, even though I've spoken to all of you by phone, I want to remind
you of the next steps in our funding process.
1) Questionaire: Go to
nes.html , read through the guidelines and fill out and submit our Art
Installation Questionaire. BE SURE TO CHECK 'THEME ART" when you are asked
what type of art project you are doing.  This info goes into a database
which we use constantly to get contact info, descriptions for the website
and gate handout art listings, footprints, pyro details, and mapping info.
2) Contracts: After we receive your questionaire we will ask you to come
into the office and sign a legal contract with us ( if you are not local we
will mail it to you). The person who you want the checks to be made out to
is the person who must sign the contract. Once we have a signed contract we
can begin the payment process. NO CHECKS WILL BE ISSUED WITHOUT A SIGNED
3) When you come in/mail your contract please give me a list of your
essential crew members - full names and titles - who will need tickets
(limit of 5 per project).  At this time we will work out any special
equipment needs you may have and any other issues.
4) Payment of grant: Each of you has already worked out a payment plan with
me. Checks will be issued to you on the dates we decided on.
Feel free to email/call me at any time to discuss your project. We have just
moved to our new office at 1900 Third Street (at 18th). My new phone number
is [deleted].
Please save this email. I'll be sending a few more over the spring and
Curator, Burning Man

[to Patricia, the fire dancer] Egeria, the big firefall -- Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 22:07:16 (PDT)

So we talked last year about your doing a ceremonial lighting of Egeria, the big firefall I wanted to do then, but I had to cancel the project to plan the wedding.
Well, she's ON this year!  Bit time!  I just got word that I got funding!
I'm Cc:ing the mailing list.  You may or may not want to be on it, since it's a lot of mail.  But you probably should be on the egeria-diary list, which sends you a link when I add a new diary entry.  It's meant to be all the important stuff.  It still may be more than you need to know.  Here's what's there so far:  --> Diary
Two folks on the team -- Rachel and Jen -- have started talking about some ideas for a lighting ceremony, based on Roman myth.  Maybe even tell the story of Egeria herself?  [Something for Friday, maybe?]  Would you want to do something every night, or once as a performance -- either friday [where there's less going on], or saturday [too much going on!] or the first lighting [which could be dangerous if it doesn't work!!! :) ]
Let me know if you want to and have time to do it this year!  Of all people, *you* are definitely the One to do the lighting!

Regular meetings: sunday and wednesday -- Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:08:31 -0700

Okay, the monday thing isn't working out for me, so let's change to sundays.  Meet to work at noon, then we'll fire up the grill -- bring something to grill -- socialize, and generally talk about what's next for the week.  By then it's dark and we can do any fire tests we need to.  Later, this will be both saturday and sunday -- come to either or both!
Rachel and I will probably be meeting wednesday's to talk about the schedule in general.  This will give me time during the week to finish up any goals that we didn't finish by sunday night.

Meeting "notes" -- please read! -- Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:48:52 -0700

Good meeting!  But I don't think we left until after 8.  And the Public Market was the best choice at the time, and it was a bit too noisy...
There was concern for the noise, and concern for starting and running late, so we'll have to change those in the future...  Esp. the last one is typical of me. :)  I *love* socializing -- this is how I make the contacts I need to do my work.  So I don't reign it in! :)  But a meeting is inappropriate for that.  We should have an agenda and stick to the topic.  I'll do better.  Also, Paula said she could manage the meetings, and Rachel said she could manage the overall schedule.
BTW, it's pronounced ee-jeer-ee-uh, or edge-eria -- not a guh, but a juh. -> type Egeria into the "Dictionary" box, then click on the speaker icon.
So for the meeting, I had an announcement: WE GOT THE FUNDING!!  LadyBee actually told me last friday and officially on monday -- we got everything we asked for!  [The second time, that is... :) ]  One thing, though, is she said Burning Man could *not* give us water, so she put back the amount I had in the budget for water.  Ug.  Well, I know DPW folks, and the water truck folks, so I may just get it through them anyway...  Kinda scary since I won't know until the Event...
[Note on water -- new developments as-of last night: Snook bought a water truck and said he could get me water no problem.  Also talked to Billy Bob about digging small, shallow holes for the pumps.  He said tell everyone they are 6" deep because that's one of the provisions in the BLM permits.  I want 1'x1'x1'.  So, "these holes are 6" deep."  Remember to say that.  Don't say otherwise.  Do you see what I'm saying?? :) ]
I wanted to go over the whole fountain to make sure everyone is on the same page.  I think we covered about half of it!  Instead of repaeting here, I'm going to make a detailed webpage.  I'll probably need a little help [examples are plenty] of rollovers and other things so you can explore a picture of Egeria and find out about every detail.
Myhrria brought some small sculpts of the support fish and the top bust of Egeria.  I'll put pics up soon.  They'll be in the "Reference & Model" gallery, but aren't up yet.  The fish, esp. has *so* much personality!  He makes me giggle!  With his big ol' lips and googly eyes.  Good stuff!
Originally, I had thought of an Egeria sculpture as the top support, but Myhrria thought it would be on the very top.  I like this much better!  But the fire torch at the top would be dumb just coming from her head, so we're talking about making multiple flames for her crown instead!  These could then spray water in the day!  We'd also make her eyes spill water.  More and more, I think her eyes should spill *torrents* of water!  [Eaiser to see from far.]  Plus, spill *fire* at night!  [Hey, if I'm referencing Dan Das Mann -- who did The One Tree in 1998] then I can rip him off [he did The Three Faces in 2000 [?]].  :)
Richard was concerned that the supports weren't strong enough.  He may well be right.  So I'm re-thinking that now...  I'll put up sketches of my ideas soon enough.
Richard and his sweety Debbie are wanting to do the outer illumination torches.  He was talking about coloring the flames.  I go back and forth on this.  My concerns are partly for reducing the illumination, but mostly because I just plain like the simplicity of the raw fire and raw copper...  Anyone have arguments for or against colorants?  [Keep in mind, we *can't* color the firefall flames...]
We also talked about the basin stones.  Richard knows a place to get cheap filler that will make them lighter.  Since cement is cheap enough, this might be the way to go...
After the meeting, we went back and Sandy and I talked specifically about the film project.  He's fired up!  [No pun intended!]  And so am I!  This is going to be a great project all the way around.
Chris and Matt arrived after that, after their class.  They patiently waited for me and Sandy to finish up, then chatted some too.  Chris told me about a great web hosting site, and I'm talking to them now about changing over to them.  Chris also had some good info about welding copper, and even invited me to visit his shop and try things out!  How gracious!
Matt suggested the salamander idea, in place of some fishes here and there.  I freaked.  How awesome!  How magical!  Yes!  The fire lizard that lives in water!!!
Is anyone opposed to changing *all* the basin fish to salamanders?  Or some of both?
The idea with the basin fishes originally is as a *gesture* of water flowing -- hence spirals, and fishes.  I noted that everything is counter-clockwise [or should I say wittershins? :) ] the spirals, and the way the fish are swimming.  I want each person on the team to color their own fish, using black, red and white, like koi.  You can either take the fish back home with you, or leave it with the project.  I'd like to get glass eyeballs for the eyes too!
Oh, I forgot.  Rachel and Loren talked about *buying* the stones from me after the project *after* the Event!  They would use them as a patio.  I've been wanting the same thing when we get a house!  I want a legacy.  And I think the grasses and weeds growing inbetween the stones eventually would look lovely!
Loren also talked about getting video tapes for Sandy through Pixar, but it turns out we can get them cheaper on-line...
Okay, I think that's all we talked about.  Please feel free to discuss what other issues came up that I missed!

Fwd: Re: Egeria on top -- Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:46:44 -0700

Here's some excerpts of a letter to Myrrhia, the woman who's doing the fish bases and the Egeria bust on top of the fountain:
To: "Myrrhia Resneck-Sannes"
From: Majo no Kiki
Subject: Re: Egeria on top
At 09:14 AM 4/12/2002 -0700, you wrote:

I agree, water shouldn't come out of the top of her head.
Flames coming out of her crown and jets of water!!!!   Awesome! .......
A simpler alternative is we could just elevate the base of the sculpure 1-2" off the floor of the top basin, and then water can come up as usual, just without spray.  Or, there could be multiple shoots of water coming up in a circle around her.
I like the fire/water crown best, unless it makes building her far too difficult for you...
But then, here's a way you could do it -- just make a big ol' slit behind her crown.  Then the piping could just stick up out of that  No one would see the piping because it would be covered by her crown and her hair.  I can make you drawings.
I have some thoughts on how to pipe her too, but I'm not going to attempt to explain over email!! :)  I need to come visit...
Another thought is that we don't want the water spray to "dilute" her tears.  But if we angle the spray backwards, that should do it.  Also, we could make some real torrents come out of her eyes!  Best, actually, since it'd be hard to see otherwise.
And making her cry tears at night!  Now *that* would be so funny, because Dan Das Mann did The One Tree, and he also did the 3 Faces -- one cried tears of flame!  [The other two cried water and sand.]
The base of the sculpture could rest on almost anything, I could give it 3 feet that it would stand on.  They wouldn't be visible because they would be underwater and lower than the rim of the bowl.
Indeed.  Sounds good to me.  Maybe a metal pedestal would be lightest.
I like the ship's mast idea.  It might add a bit more courageousness to her demeanor, with her head drooping in sorrow, she might look too defeated.
She could be leaning forward, looking outward like someone in knelt deep sorrow crying out, "don't leave me!"
I would like to construct her so that from any direction, you can have something interesting to see.  The back of someone's body need not be boring.  It is still expressive.
Maybe this is a good reason to put her hair up -- I think a woman's back and shoulders are really beautiful.  The nape of the neck is an alluring spot [though it might be difficult to put her hair up *that* much!]
A suggestion: take a look at Roman hair styles, in particular, royalty.  I have "I, Claudius" if you want to borrow it.  Talk about racy!  It has everything: sex, poisonings, political intrigue...  Good stuff!  [13 hours long, though!  Ak!]  I have it on DVD, do you have a player?
Should we have her face the man or center camp?  My choice is the man.  It is the focus of the event, after all.
The Man!  Yes!! :)
An idea: instead of spouts on the copper bowls, we could rig the fish to spit water, set them on the edges of the bowls?  (Structural integrity might not permit this, but fish could be made smaller....)
We should talk about ways to make the fish smaller.  It would be better anyway -- for many reasons.
I like the clean, simple spouts best.  It allows the people to see the flames better.

he fish are cool, but how about... -- Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:07:31 -0700

"SALAMANDER - Fire elemental. A small salamander manages hearth and furnace and a larger one deals with volcanoes, earthly holocausts and the like. Its emblem is the Lamp. It is, supposedly, drawn by energy and strength but repelled by temperament, irascibility and violence. This powerful nature spirit, however, does not easily communicate with man and is the most difficult for us to understand. Its etymology, of course, is the Persian word for any lizard, samandar."

Shipping -- Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:11:47 (PDT)

The bowls will take up quite a bit: 10'x8' [and 8' tall.]  But the way it'll be packed, things can fit in the empty spaces.  Let's say these things can fit in the empty spaces:
Pedestals, pond liner, torches, the rest of the stones, piping/hoses, and miscellany.  What's left is lots of wood for the outer wall, wood for the propane boxes/electrical boxes, and the steel structure.
What will all this look like?
Wood is always bigger than you'd think...
The steel might go well anywhere, stuffed into crannies.
10x8 footprint for the bowls.  Another 5x8 for the wood and other leftovers?
If we could get a shipping container dropped at the ShipYard, and pack it at our leisure, we'd probably do well.  The ShipYard *should* have a forklift by then...

Weight of the bowls [was Re: Does size matter?] -- Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:11:28 (PDT)

btw, has anyone figured out how much the bottom bowl will weigh (empty)?
I get a rough number of 0.32 (pounds/in^3) * 0.050 (in) * pi * 60(in)^2  = 180 pounds.
That's a 3 person job to move it.
I hadn't calculated it, but after moving the Cauldron enough, I knew it was going to be a bit of a job.  Another big reason I don't want to use 062 copper.  Even 050 is going to be a bit heavy...
Here's a quick calculation:
A sheet of 050 is 60#, according to David Madison's copper post.
A sheet is 3x8 = 24 ft^2  ==> 2.5#/ft^2
    [man, fuck 20oz copper, dude! :) ]
A 10' round is 5x5xpi = ~78.5 ft^2
78.5ft^2 x 2.5#/ft^2 = 196.25#
Yep...heavy!  Ug.  [We'll have a forklift in the ShipYard in not too long [hopefully] and should have one on the playa too.]
There's always a fine line between too thin and sags, and too thick and heavy/hard to work...  Finding an optimal line to walk is hard to do well...  When projects get big, that line gets narrow -- and sometimes non-existent... :)
I also want to calculate the *actual* diameter after shaping.  Shouldn't be too much smaller than 10'...  If the sides were square, at an 8" depth, it's 9'4".
Shipping will require a crate that rigidly supports it in the center and passively
supports it on the rim.  Otherwise it's likely it will sag and arrive bent.
Yep.  I'm planning this.  As well as a flange or pipe in the middle for the center hole to slide down against.  And support legs under the box we can pack around.  I'm thinking of putting it in the *back* of the container.  Put plywood across the front so when the container is loaded for transport [which happens at a violent, heart-stopping 45 degrees!] the things packed in front won't totally smash into it.  
The upper 2 bowls could nest and share a smaller crate.
I hope to nest *all* of them.  Can't think of a reason not to.
I would include metal patching tools (a torch & solder (boo hiss)), or a small TIG
unit, if one can be found.  I suppose a hefty transparent plastic tape would work
in a pinch.
I'll probably bring the TIG or ask to use one.  There should be welders around.  I'll ask Crimson about a DPW TIG.
What other things are bulky to pack?  Pedestals, box of pond liner, steel for outer supports, wood for outer sitting wall, torches, wood for covering the propane tank[s], stones, piping/hoses, and a handful of miscellany.  I can't think of anything else really critical.  [No propane, no naphtha, which will be delivered/rented.]  I think this should fit in a container with room to spare.
Kiki -- "The TIG."  I *have* to get one...  I just *have* to...

Does size matter? -- Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:10:49 (PDT)

At 09:38 AM 4/8/2002 -0700, Dan Lyke wrote:
Majo no Kiki writes:
> Well, from a distance you'll be able to tell it's shallow.  It'll
> have to be proportionately deep, like the others.
Especially up on the top, where it'll be hard to tell seams, how about
a thin top bowl, some support structure, and a lower facade of thin
copper (could almost just be foil) to give the illusion of depth. If
it were level, you could almost just do a plate that had false
thickness for anything above eye level.
For a whole host of reasons, I think it's simpler and better to just plain make them all the same.  I think the work of doing something different would outweigh the benefit.  The copper is in the budget and "paid" for, so that's not an issue.  And anything "different" has the potential to *look* different.  Any other issues left will have to be dealt with on the biggest bowl to a larger degree.  We simply have to do it to a lesser degree with the smallest bowl.

Fire info sent to Crimson -- Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 15:33:26 (PDT)

Here's the list of things I'd like to talk to you about:
Forklift: I may need the forklift for an hour on the playa.  We'll all be out there a full week early, so this will probably be sometime early in the week prior to the start of the Event.
Power: Can I get power from the grid?  We'll need about 1200watts continuously.
Propane: I'll need to have two 90# [I think -- two 15-20 gal tanks in other words] filled each day.  Let me know what I need to do to arrange this.
Naphtha delivery: could I have someone pick up the fuel for me in Sparks?  I'd rather not run a drum of fuel myself.  [I've had luck with Barry Hinkeley for getting naphtha.  If there's another company you use, let me know and I'll see if they can help me.]
Fire schedule: I'll run fine-on-water for 3-4 hours a night, and run illumination torches all night long.  Let me know what other info you need as far as our schedule or fuel goes.  [I'll also fill out an art form on the web.]
Water: I know the water truck people, so I can wheel-and-deal my own water.  The issue here is *amount* of water.  Obviously, I want as little water as possible...  However...[and listen carefully :) ] the pumps need 10" of depth to function....and the bottom basin area is 25' diameter.  That's 330 gallons per *inch* of depth!!  I say again, the pumps need 10" of depth to function....
So... can I dig four small holes -- 1'x1'x1' to place the pumps in?  We'd carefully back-fill them after the Event, of course!  [We'd have the water to do it, too! :) ]  This would save a *LOT* of water!
Please, please say yes! :)
Okay, I think that's it.

The unsolvable list -- Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 15:30:21 (PDT)

Here's the list of things left in my head to think about. :)  Share with the list any ideas you have on solving them.  [Sorry it's so long.  Feel free to read just the first paragraph in each section...]
These are the stones that will fill in the basin area:
I think this will be the most labor-intensive job, therefore I want to make continual, slow steady progress on this throughout; I also want to break this into pieces people can do at home
A friend said I might be able to get free cement, but it'll most likely be in large batches.  This would mean we'd have to have many *molds* built.  So if we went this route, we'd have to focus our time [and money] on making molds, not on making stones.  This is harder to just take home and work on...
Transportation: shipping these stones is also an issue...  And I've been toying with the thought of asking each of you to take 10 with you.  What do you think?  Even if *some* could be taken this way, it'd be better.  They'll probably be heavy...
Weight: yes, they will probably be heavier than you'd think.  Could they be built as a shell?  Could we "lay them up" like paper mache, using metal screen for the "paper"?  Could we otherwise make them hollow?  Could we add something [vermiculite] to make them lighter anyway?  [All of these things will be harder if we use free cement...]
Sharp edges: this is a big one...because we can't have *any* holes in the liner.  [Esp. if we get a cheap liner...which I actually don't think we can get away with anyway -- I think it'll *have* to be polyethylene, not vinyl, because vinyl would melt in any residual fuel.]  Someone talked about embedding pieces of carpet into the bottom of the stones.  I like this a lot, but it also adds a *ton* of labor to this part... ug.  We might also lay something between the stones and the liner.  This would gather dust badly, though.  And it'll be bad enough even on slick liner...
Which brings me to...
I'm planning to filter the water, but the real issue is getting all the dust *to* the filter.  If the pumps are below the fountain, then any dust that falls between the cracks in the basin around the fountain will just stay there and build up...  [Make sense?]
The probable solution I'll go with is spraying the bricks down each morning to force the dust towards the fountain pumps.  Ug.  More morning maintenance...
Also, I'll probably have a separate filter/pump system.  I don't think I can put any more strain on the pumps I'll be using.  It'll be enough that one will have an 8' head [meaning, it has to pump all the way to the top of the fountain.]  Not to mention that I have some small jets coming from the water system to keep the windows clear.  [If you have no idea what I'm talking about, it's complicated and I'll have to explain later...]  In any case, I don't want to restrict the water flow if at all possible.
--------------Water depth:
This is actually something that worries me a lot...
25' diameter: 12.5' radius: 12.5' x 12.5' x pi x 1" x 8gal/ft^2 = 328gal
328-frikkin-gallons-per-frikkin-inch of water!  Egads!
The pumps will need 10" of depth thereabouts to function.
Two solutions:
Dig in the playa.  They will freak.  Cannot dig in the playa.  But I'm going to ask if we can dig three 1'x1'x1' holes to sink the pumps in.  Hopefully, they will say yes.
Raise up the basin area.  Oh my.  This would mean putting pallets throughout the whole basin area under the liner.  This also includes raising up the fountain.  Needless to say, I don't like this idea.  It's doable, though.
Cross your fingers for when I talk to Crimson...
LadyBee said burning Man will ship Egeria out, so that's paid for.  But how to pack it will be...tricky...
The bottom bowl will be 10'.  The maximum width you can carry on the highway without a WideLoad sign is 8'.  Shipping containers [which I assume they'll be using] are 8'x8.5'x20 [or longer].  Which is fine, since the bowl *will* fit diagonally.
But that presents other problems: how to pack it so it won't get bent.  Also, how to pack *around* it.  That'd be a lot of wasted space!
I'm planning to nest the bowls [this is also quite tricky, since there's pipe fittings and stuff, but I have a clever solution...]  But they will have to be *boxed* probably, in a *sturdy* box. that I'm thinking about this, we could build *legs* on the diagonal box of bowls, pack things under them, and also build *shelves* on top of the box to pack things there too...  Okay, that seems more possible.
Free wood?  1x4's are easy -- pallets can be gotten free just about anywhere.  It means tearing them apart, though...  What I really need to find is a source for free plywood.  I don't care how dirty or messed up it is.  Anyone have construction connections?  Maybe dumpster dive for them?  Keep your eyes peeled!
------------Forming the bowls:
Allen suggested that I cut *ribs* from plywood then line them up together to make the form.  This is an *excellent* idea!  I'd been trying to figure out how to bend plywood into a form, but this makes far more sense -- turn the plywood on end and cut many arcs together.  This is also advantageous in that you can simply rotate out the ribs for the smaller bowls.
If we scallop them, this is a little more tricky.
This will be a lot of hammering...  I guess we'll have to learn a lot of railroad hammering work songs. :)
-----------------Nesting the bowls
Nesting the bowls together is important both for shipping as well as storage.  However, the piping in the middle is tricky.
My plan is to put a cylinder in the middle that comes up above the water level.  Piping can simply run through the cylinder without leak problems.  However, this makes nesting them difficult...
The solution is to make the bottom tier's cylinder *smallest* by a little bit, and the middle larger and the top largest.  Thus, the cylinders will *also* nest, one inside the other.  I'll have to work out just how big they'll have to be, because obviously, the *supports* get *smaller* as they go up, and the top tier's cylinder will have to fit inside the top support...
Okay, that's the to-do [to-think?] list as of now.

Utilikilts -- Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 15:08:57 (PDT)

I just sent an email to Utilikilts because they ROCK!
They make work kilts for men.  Oh.  Yeah.  Baybee.
What I asked was if they'd be interested in making a "firefall special edition" with embroidered firefall logo of some sort and charge an extra, say, $50 to help fund this project.
I also asked if they'd paint one copper before sewing for me! :)  [If they can't you can bet I'll paint it once done!  It would be so frikkin cool to wear a copper skirt while working on the fountain!  Oh yeah!]
Lastly, I asked for a group discount for a "crew" utilikilt.  How many people would be interested in one?
Kiki -- I wish I were a guy wearing one of their kilts because I would be oh so much more sexy! :)

Morning Thoughts: Assembly on the playa -- Sun, 07 Apr 2002 13:33:17 -0700

So the issue this morning was assembly on the playa.
First of all, my schedule for assembly is to go out a full week before the Event begins and finish everything up during that week.  This means I'll be out there for at *least* two weeks, plus disassembly.
Here's the image:
The fountain must be assembled from the bottom up.  Each tier will have piping and fuel connections to be made -- it's not just setting the bowl up there, someone [me] will have to be up there to hook everything up too.  And not just up there 3' away, but up there *close* -- near the center, because that's where the pipes will hook up.
The top bowl will be a challenge.  Can we put scaffolding up to clear the other two bowls?  Will I lay on a forklift?  Should we assemble the top bowl on it's side with all the piping and make the piping connections at the bottom?  [This would require a forklift with a *high* reach!  The cherry-picker might be able to do this, though, so there's options.]
I think best would be scaffolding and find a way to build it to clear the bowls.  Or depending on what kind of scaffolding we can get, maybe build two separate levels on either side, and put planks between.  Yeah, that sounds best.
Scaffolding -- I know two people with scaffolding.  Allen and Dr. J.  Dr. J has offered his for our town's big dome, so it might even be *taken*.  Allen has his own plans as well.
However, maybe if we're assembling Egeria during the week, not the weekend, this would be more doable -- we could *borrow* scaffolding for a day from both and return it quickly.  We might not even need the forklift [which would be a *shame* because I luuuuv driving the forklift! hehehehe!]  There may be other scaffolding out there we can borrow.  I need to talk to Crimson about a forklift and other DPW resources we might need.
Anyway, more things to think of!  But again, I think this one is solvable.
Just keeping you all up to date on the plans.

[From Loren] Re: Egeria: copper part 2 -- TIGing copper!! -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 22:29:23 (PST)

Cheers and congratulations.
That was a laudable exposition on the different types of welding.
I had one small correction, however.  The voltages are generally *low*, typically
40 or so volts.  This is for safety reasons so you don't get fried when things get wet.
You feel a tingle long before you get hurt.
I had a welding instructor once that said the most important thing to learn about
welding was how to find a comfortable position.  If one is the least bit uncomfortable
it's hard to focus and control is erratic.  I often find myself in a contorted position
concentrating on the weld but getting shaky as I've neglected the sharp corner of
the table sticking into my ribs...
You're doing great!
Best wishes. and thanks for the formal invite [to your camp].
Today I ordered the 24V motors for our playa vehicle...
Loren Carpenter

[The religion of copper...] Egeria: TIG pictures -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 21:29:17 (PST) 3, 2002: TIGing copper test -- successful!
I have to say, while TIGing and while putting up these pictures, just looking at the copper makes my heart *pound*!!  It's such a breath-taking metal, I cannot express the delight I get just *looking* at it.  Ooooo......and the *thought* of all the copper I'm about to buy........
The emotions are actually far more overwhelming than I first expected.  I feel pounding in my chest like the first time I learned to play African drums.  I feel consumed by the energy of copper, and if I had those samples here in the house instead of locked up in our workshop at the ShipYard, no doubt I'd put them by the bed so I could rest my hand on them while I slept...
Do you ever have one of those moments where the science part of your mind knows spirituality is a lot of hokeyness...and yet, something captures your soul so deeply you just can't deny it?
Carla: Say...Rose?  Do you believe in magic?
Rose Walker: Not really, *no*.  But that's not what you're asking me.
Carla: It's *not*?
Rose: Nope.  What you're asking me is, do I believe in weird shit?  And the answer is *yes*.  Of *course* I do.  I have to.  I've had a weird shit *life*.
    -- Sandman, The Kindly Ones

Egeria: copper part 2 -- TIGing copper!! -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 21:00:51 (PST)

And then on to welding...
As it turned out, my friend Greg was home today and invited me over to play with his TIG.  It's an air-cooled TIG and since a *lot* of power is needed to weld copper, it's possible it might melt down doing the long welds I'll need to do...  But it seemed plenty for doing some small tests.
Let me first give you a quick overview for those who know nothing about welding.  [And the experts feel free to correct me too! :) ]
There's oxy-acetylene or gas welding.  This burns acetylene into a hot flame which is used to heat the metal.  Welding involves pushing a rod of metal into the weld -- melting it into the joint and melting the joining metal together.
There's arc or stick welding.  This involves creating a very high voltage, high amperage electrical arc that heats the metal.  The arc is generated through an "electrode" stick, which is also the feed rod, and is melted into the weld as you work.  That means you have to move closer and closer as you weld and the stick is melted into the weld.  The stick is coated in a flux which helps the metal flow into the weld, and also to form gasses as it's burned away to shield the weld from the air.
There's MIG -- Metal Inert Gas.  MIG is called "glue gun" by a friend of mine because it *feeds* a wire into the joint as it creates an arc off the tip of the wire.  The wire is continually fed through the tip from a very large spool in the body of the machine, so welding is quite easy -- just press a button and go!  MIG is criticized for not having good "penetration" since it starts cold and doesn't heat the metal up for the first few inches.  Oh, I almost forgot -- the "inert gas" part is that there's a steady stream of inert gas to shield the arc -- often argon, but other gasses or mixtures of gasses can be used as well.
And there's TIG -- Tungston Inert Gas.  This has a permanent tungston tip that the arc comes off of -- no wire feed -- and an inert gas shield like MIG to protect the weld from oxygen.  So it's kind of a cross between gas and MIG because you have to feed the wire in from the side by hand.  TIG is more difficult than MIG, but it can weld far more varieties of metals -- and varieties of metals to *other* metals.  I saw aluminum welded to stainless, if I remember right.  Wow!
We tried TIGing the 064 first.  It's thick but would have less chance of "burning through" -- meaning melting a hole.  He set the TIG to 80 [amps?] and found it needed the pedal pressed only about half-way, so far less amps were needed than we thought -- this is good!  The first tiny tack-down had the sheets warping up, though...  Something I'd been warned of, but a whack with a hammer worked well to get it to behave.  I didn't even think about the fact that because copper is so malleable that warping really wasn't an issue if you're careful to just stop and pound it back.
He laid a pretty nice bead once it'd been tacked down, but it didn't have really good penetration -- the weld didn't show through on the other side.  I'm not opposed to simply welding both sides, though, so this was fine.
He ended up not needing any rod fed into the weld -- just melted both sides together!  So this simplifies things greatly.
After this first test, we both felt quite confident that this wasn't so hard, that you didn't need to pre-heat and that you didn't even need to clean the joint well.
I realized that this is quite doable, if you are consciously patient and take a zen-like attitude.  Something I will constantly remind myself of as I work on this -- don't get frustrated, just get patient.
He let me try my hand too -- first just on the open metal, not attempting to join two pieces.  It was spattery, though, and neither of us could figure out why [too much/little gas? too much/little amerage? something else?]  I kept touching the tip, which caused it to stick, and can even damage the tungston...  You had to hold it quite close, though, so this was chalked up to "skill" needing to be learned.
We then decided to try the thinner stock.  We tried 050 next.  He immediately burned a hold when he tacked.  He said the hole just "suddenly appeared!"  Probably due to the purity of the metal -- that the whole thing is either solid *or* liquid, and thus "burns" quickly when it happens...  He tried another weld and it went well, but burned again at the edge -- where there isn't room for the heat to dissipate, so it heated more at the edges.  Something to remember.
We then moved to the 030.  This actually welded pretty easily!  And he laid the best bead yet!  I tried my own hand on the open metal [not trying to put a seam together] and burned a hole -- and didn't realize it until I'd cut a hold a half centimeter!  Eeks!  It *does* sneak up on you!  I tried filling it in with the rod -- and accomplished it by added a big mound of copper to the hole. :)  Which is fine, since it could be ground back away. :)  I didn't get any penetration at all on the repair, so I turned it over and melted the lump smoother on the other side.  It looked pretty lumpy. :)  But in the end I got a pretty good "feel" for TIG and for copper.
[You know, I just realized how silly this is: I'm learning to TIG by TIGing copper.  Maybe I should learn blacksmithing by blacksmithing stainless steel. :) ]
Then I went ahead and gave a try to welding a seam.  It started to warp, so I patiently took the hammer to it and tried again.  This time it held and as I welded it still warped, but warped at the same rate and so I could simply keep welding.  I got fair penetration -- not the whole length, but there was some for most of it.  So I was getting better!
I can do this!
I noticed crystals on the back of one of Greg's welds -- copper will actually crystallize.  When it does, though, it can be quite fragile.  And I'd noticed some cracks along some of the welds later.  Something to think about.  Perhaps after welding, I'll have to carefully anneal the edge -- soften it.
I want to do some experiments to see if copper can be heat-hardened -- like this: set up 5 or so propane radiant heaters under the bowl, facing up; heat the bowl for an hour or two, then start slowly backing the heaters down over the course of a few hours.  I wonder if this will work...  I'll be trying some experiments.
So there you have it!  Welding copper is pretty easy!  The key is *patience*, and a zen-like attitude.  I can do this!
Kiki -- over the biggest hurdle now!  Bring on the money!!! heehehe!
PS BTW, exactly what I want to happen is happening: I'm learning a lot about copper and it's properties.  I'm starting to become an expert!  Soon, I will become a copper welding expert!  I'm so excited to become adept at a new skill!

Egeria: copper part 1 -- copper warehouse!! -- Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 20:39:02 (PST)

All in all, a good day!!!
Went to Copper & Brass in Oakland today.  []  The guy seemed not really sure what to do with me, so he treated me as a wholesaler, and generally seemed kinda confused. :)  He gave me a handful of good-sized samples, though, and I left with a much better feeling and understanding of what I had to work with.
I had been leaning towards 064 thickness, but it seems *way* too thick for what I'm doing.  Too heavy, too hard to work.  I got a sample of 030 and 050 too.  050 seems more about right, though I don't think it'd hurt to go a little thinner, so I'm thinking 04  I'll be browsing the catalog later tonight and making some decisions.
I felt the annealed copper and the "half-hard".  Half-hard is the hardest you can get.  This seemed good to me, and this is probably what I'll get.  The annealed was near-squishy and could easily be bent between three fingers, like pie crust -- reeeeeeeely soft.
He showed me 101 mostly -- which is nearly pure -- but I don't think 110 would be all that bad either.  All the 100-series are near-pure.  The 200's are slightly doped, and below that are the alloys and brasses.  101 OFE is low oxygen and used for excellent electrical conductivity, and should be great for welding.
He carried the pieces to the truck for me, and I asked how much I owed him.  He said, "well, how much you got?"  The first time he relaxed and joked around me. :)  I told him I'd bring a 6-pack next time. :)  Maybe I even will! :)
In all, I left quite happy!
And then on to welding...

Egeria stones -- Monday, April 01, 2002 at 16:30:32 (PST)

Just wanted to get some thoughts down about the stones.
First of all, a tiny bit of bad news...
I miscalculated originally.  Ug.  So there's many more stones than I originally thought.  Esp. since we're going with a 25' basin area, instead of 20'.  Double-ug.  It's still doable, though, but it's a lot...
So I'm probably going with *larger* stones -- like 12" instead of 10".  I'm also looking at making two different sizes of stones -- a smaller size to fit the cracks a little better.  I'll put an updated picture of the stones up soon.
Here's some thoughts on the basin area and the stones:
First off, let's make sure everyone is on the same page:
The basin area is the very bottom of the fountain.  It's where the water ultimately ends up.  This is the area the pumps will pump from.  It's also the area people will approach the fountain and stand on.
I saw a picture of someone standing on a peninsula into a fountain -- they were surrounded by water.  I thought this was very cool.
I had also done some cool tests a year before with fuel between bricks -- the little blue flames dart inbetween.  You can stand on these tiny flames and feel no heat.
The idea was to combine these two things together.
Thus, the basin area will be a bricked in courtyard-like area, where the water flows between the bricks, and so do the flames.
[Note: it is yet to be determined that this will actually work -- the flames might be too yellow and flare up since there will be large gaps between the bricks...  So I do have fall-back plans!  See below...]
At first, I wanted to make a mosaic of Egeria herself, since she turned into the fountain.  But I realized that if one piece broke, I'd be screwed.  So I got the idea to make one simple shape that could be repeated that fit together well enough.  So I conceived the spiral stones.  I also added fish stones, both to help simulate the flow of water, and also so the people working on Egeria could personalize their own fish and have something of their own in the fountain!  [Pssst, that means you! :) ]
The spirals all turn one way.  The fish will all swim one way.  Thus, the fake water "turns" one way.  Everything will turn counter-clockwise.
Here's my initial idea:
Sadly, this rendition I did was the wrong scale, and there's more stones than I list here...  I mis-scaled the picture.  Bummer.
The stones will be a significant amount of the work for this project.  But I'm hoping to make the work go something like this: we make a handful of molds and hand off 2-3 to people to work on at home.  These people can come home from work, mix a bag of concrete [or less] fill the molds, and be done for the night.  A couple nights a week of this for a month of two should get them all made.  And should be easy work.
Transport: I might ask people in the project to take 10 or so stones with them in their usual trip to the playa.  [Probably no more than 10, since they'll be *heavy*!  Like carrying 10 cinder blocks!]  Whatever is left over will have to be packed fairly carefully and loaded onto a truck with the rest of the fountain.
Fish: each person on the project can color one fish how they like.  I'd prefer each fish stay with a Koi theme -- red, black, white.  Each person can color their fish how they like.  They can even keep their fish after the Event if they want.
I'm also thinking it might be cool to find glass eyeballs for the fish -- something round and googly, maybe those Chinese glass eggs you see at any Chinese pottery outlet...
I'm also thinking of covering the outside of the fish with mica or other glittery substance -- they'd look so lovely if they glistened!
Fire:  With fire-water passing through the stones, there's some issues.
People playing: while people play at the fountain, they won't pay attention to their feet.  So the fuel will have to be kept out of the area they will be standing on.  This can be done with narrow strips of metal -- the fuel floats, so it can't get under the metal, so it acts as a barricade.  The metal won't burn, so it's okay against the flames.
Flames on the pond liner: this is also an issue.  The fuel itself might dissolve the liner, but the flames will certainly wreck havoc!  I'm thinking of threading the metal strip half-way away from the fountain just to keep the flames off the liner itself.  [Note: this is a good reason to use polyethylene liner over simple, vinyl  pool liner -- fuel won't touch it...]
Today for lunch, Todd said that I might be able to get *free* cement if I make friends with cement companies!  They often can't pour a whole cement load and so have to get rid of it somewhere...  If we can have the molds sitting ready, we might be able to get them filled quickly and easily and for free!!!
Todd also said there's an additive for cement that makes it water tight.  I was considering sealing them with a paint-on sealant, but a mix would be far easier!
Another friend said you can add vermiculite to the cement to reduce weight.  A definite plus!
Okay, that's about the limit of the topic on the stones for today! :)

Egeria NEWSFLASH! -- Monday, April 01, 2002 at 15:44:58 (PST)

Just got off the phone with LadyBee.  She's looked over the new budget and seemed happy enough that I cut bunches off the budget.  Though, she said she and Larry are going to sit down with it on friday and talk about it.
So we're not out of the woods yet, but she seems a lot happier about it.
Just had to say!

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