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Rolled edge (from Dr. J) -- Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 01:19:58 (PST)
Welding copper (from Dr. J) -- Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 01:14:24 (PST)
Some late night bullshitting :) -- Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:16:31 -0800
Shortening the supports -- Friday, March 22, 2002 at 17:12:15 (PST)
Egeria schedule -- Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:45:33 (PST)
Relevant Egeria posts now on-line -- Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:44:32 (PST)
Copper research -- Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:43:20 (PST)
Egeria: linguini with scallops -- Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:51:00 -0800
Pond liners -- Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:32:00 -0800
Support stuff -- Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:37:00 -0800 (PST)
Egeria: vacuum forming -- Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:59:00 -0800
Egeria update: form-thing and windows -- Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:54:00 -0800
Egeria: The Meeting -- Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:51:00 -0800
Egeria: DMI: reduce water -- Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:11:00 +0000
Egeria: model pictures are up! -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:24:00 -0800
Artistic vision -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:26:49 -0800
Egeria: [short] today's plans -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:13:00 -0800
QOTD: "How much less impressive...?" -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:06:00 -0800
Egeria: propane use from the Flaming Lotus Girls -- Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:13:49 -0800
Egeria: weekly Sunday and Monday meetings -- Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:54:41 -0800
Budget -- Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:36:00 -0800
Egeria budget -- Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:16:00 -0800
Egeria: attaching wedges -- Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:31:00 -0800
Egeria model -- Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:52:51 -0800
Budget -- Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:29:00 -0800

Rolled edge (from Dr. J) -- Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 01:19:58 (PST)

Oh, and the rolled edge think:
A large diameter thin walled tube is prone to failure in a compressive load when it buckles or crumples (like a beer can). This tendency can be reduced by rolling the ends of the tube and by creating half rolls along it's length (look at a standard 55 gallon drum). If you cut the roll off, it becomes much weaker.
Dr J

Welding copper (from Dr. J) -- Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 01:14:24 (PST)

Okay, here's the gist of it
I stopped by the welding supply store and drained their brains on welding copper. It can be welded using Tig or Mig. Shielding gas can be argon, but nitrogen has been found to reduce spatter. They recommended a Nitro/Argon blend (I think they said 25/75). Filler rod/mig wire can be Silicon Bronze or Copper. SiBr is easier to weld, but the color match would not be as good.
Weld current requirements are higher than steel but lower than aluminum, so a 170 amp machine should be able to do 3/16 thick copper max with one pass.
Some copper alloys are more difficult to weld than others; consult your copper supplier for more info on that
Both types of wire are available in rolls as small as 2 lb (that would get you started to try things out without breaking the bank).
You will want to back up the area being welded with a steel plate (you can try 1/4", but I think it might warp over time, making it harder to keep in contact with the area you are welding) The steel will act as a heat sink as well as shielding the back of the weld from oxygen, both of which will minimize burn through.
Hope this has proven useful
Dr J

Some late night bullshitting :) -- Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:16:31 -0800

I was at DNA Lounge tonight for a party that I'm going to call an art-party -- in the same way you'd say Burning Man is a community event.  The party was more than that, and, some would say, *less* than that [meaning Jim Mason. :) ]  In any case, the walls were filled with art!  There was DJing and dancing and people hanging out and chatting -- and I see this as the nouveau art/culture centers of the modern world, and I think that's far better than some stuffy museum where you hold your hands behind your back as you look...
[Note: I was supposed to run the Ceramic Thing at this party, but I had a fuel leak that I couldn't get fixed in time, so I gave up and just went and enjoyed myself.]
I was approached by a surprising number of women who are very interested in joining the Egeria project!
Now, ug, I hate the whole feminism thing, and worse, the backlash, and the backlash of the backlash.  There's a whole movement to honor men -- a recent positive resurgence of male-energy.  I mean, just *look* at all the penises there are at Burning Man!  I think this is just *fabulous*!  I think feminists more often than not push their agenda too hard, and miss the entire point.  Worse, I feel men are too often blamed for things they are no longer guilty for -- like blaming whites for slavery.  I see so much male-anger it just makes me sick and mad at the feminists for oppressing men in as stifling a way as men had oppressed women!  When will the backlash, and the backlash of the backlash end?  When can we simply find *balance*??  When can we just *honor* men as well as women for who they are, not criticize for who they are not...
Well, anyway.  I didn't mean to make this a philosophy rambling... :)
I want to make a statement, but I want to be careful no to alienate the men out there...
So much fire art out there is big explosions, big ejaculations of fire, "light it and run" fire.  Now, don't get me wrong!  I *LOVE* projects like the ICP!  [The big fire cannons -- Impotence Compensation Project, it's actually called.]  I'm a big SRL fan!  I'm enrapt by fire in any form, and I esp. love honoring men, finally, who's turn it is to have their day.
But the firefall, to me, is so very *feminine* a fire art.  Without being too hokey, it's calm, meditative, intimate, *creative*.  It is many things that I associate with the woman-essence.
Further, my own artwork has some very strong, *subconscious* feminine symbolism.  The hourglass shape is a very common, and subconscious element in my art.  And I recently realized that that's why I'm doing the fish -- I'm making the supports have a curvy woman's-torso look.  Here I go again with the hourglass... :)  I really can't help it!
In any case, I just have to say I'm so *thrilled* that so many women are excited about the firefall and want to help with this project!  Really touched more deeply than I expected.  I came away tonight with my heart pounding and wanting to cry I was so excited and happy about this.  It took me by surprise!
I really don't want to alienate the men on this project!  And if you'd rather work on the tall, upright propane illumination torches, instead of the bowls or curvy-torso-fish-sculptures, then by all means! :) heehee!  Just kidding! :)
I'm just so thrilled that these women are finding a deep-down calling to work on this fire-art project, because for me, the firefall reaches deep into a very womanly place inside my soul, and resonates with those feelings of intimacy, touch, caress, and hold in your hands...  It is using water to passively shape and control where the fire flows, rather than control the flames directly by acting on the fuel.
I really hate that artsy-fartsy symbolism crapola when an artist tries to tell you some philosophy of what their art *means*.  It doesn't mean *shit* you dork.  it is what it is inside the viewer, not what your childhood experiences were or somesuch.  Most philosophizing is some stupid crap that is worked *into * a piece after the fact. But some kinds of symbolism are real, and interesting.  They are patterns with which you can see a deeper meaning in a piece that has unintentioned, subconscious meanings.  Even some symbolism has nothing at all to do with artist and piece, but with the viewer entirely!  [One woman told me the firefall is about facing your fears -- I just think it's awesome someone can find another new way to relate to the firefall.]  And it's this indirect-symbolism that *really* fascinates me, and is my judge of just how successful a piece of art really is...
...well, I'm rambling now. :)  So I'll shut up and go to bed... :)
I hope you'll forgive me this tired, late-night brain barf... :)

Shortening the supports -- Friday, March 22, 2002 at 17:12:15 (PST)

At our recent camp meeting, one of our campmates, Daivd Madison, suggested lowering the supports on the tiers, ie cutting the barrels down some.  This would reduce the wind profile.
I've been thinking a lot about this, since I also don't like the ratio of the width of the supports to the width of the bowls -- the bottom bowl looks good, but the middle, and esp. the top look too small in proportion to the support it's help by.
So I'm thinking this is a good idea...
The issue mainly is: would it compromise the integrity of the support?
If done carefully, I'd say not.  In fact, I'm thinking the best way would be to cut a slit, and roll it up some to make it skinnier, and leave the excess inside to make it stronger.
The problem with cutting it shorter is it leaves a ragged edge against copper [either at the top or the bottom.]  How could we protect the edge?  Ideas: weld the cut off piece back on, such that the rolled edge is right at the edge of the cut; or, weld round stock to the cut edge; or, take, say, conduit, bend it into a circle, slit the side and just set the cut edge into it.
Anyway, I'm going to think more about this.  I think it's a good idea.  And I think the fountain will look much better.  I'll work out the dimensions too.

Egeria schedule -- Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:45:33 (PST)

The Egeria schedule is now on-line!
This is probably a pretty screwy way to do a schedule, but I think it best reflects the fluid flow of work over time.  Defining a schedule with hard deadlines or milestones -- without any indication of the work difficulty in progress -- are difficult to prove they'll be met.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with this schedule.  I won't go over what I did on the page, but you can pay attention yourself to parts that are getting done first [and being focused on] and the other parts that require plodding, steady work.
It's been really good for me to have to turn in things like budgets and schdules.  It's forced me to really think everything through start to finish, and plan [to death] everything.  It's also been good, too, cutting things out of the budget.  It's a lot tighter, and even more realistic.  [Now to find better places to get what we need. :) ]  I do have wiggle room, but I'm a bit scared I don't have enough.  I might do one or two simple fundraisers -- run the Cauldron, sell t-shirts, but no more.  A couple thousand later in the year would probably do me good...
Well, there you have it!  I am officially done with the proposal!  [Well, okay, *if* they accept it as-is. :) ]  I need to finish up the model, then I can sleep night again. :)
I did quite a bit of overhaul on the website today too, so check it out!

Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:45:33 (PST)

Relevant Egeria posts now on-line -- Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:44:32 (PST)

I made a script so I can easily add my updates directly to the Egeria web page.
I'm so glad I wrote down my daily thoughts with the Cauldron.  It's fun to go back and re-read all that I went through.  I know this will become "history" one day. :)
Anyway, if you are filtering all this mail into the I guess you won't read this anyway, but, well, maybe now you *could* just filter this mail into the garbage and poke into the web page every once in a while to see what's going on. :)
Mostly my own postings, maybe a couple really relevant postings by others here and there.
PS If this *is* getting too much, let me know.  I've been toying with making a work-oriented list, sans discussion.

Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:44:32 (PST)

Copper research -- Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:43:20 (PST)

Just taking a little closer look at copper.
Allen says you can even MIG copper if it's really pure.  Oh.  Yeah.  I.  Am.  So.  There.  if that's true.
I also understand that you can use simple stripped copper wire as the stick when TIGging.
So I went to see what copper sheet options there are.  I started with the page that David Madison found for 054 sheet @ $113/sheet, free shipping.
They have a number of different kinds of copper [and the definitions I found]:
OFE -- Oxygen Free Electronic
OF -- Oxygen Free
ETP -- Electrolytic Tough Pitch
and some alloys
This has a list of all these and their percentages of copper:
   99.95 (C103) Cu-OF UNS C10200 OFHC
   99.85 C106 Cu-DHP UNS C12200 Phosphorus Deoxidised
   99.99 (C110) SE-Cu/Cu-OFE - Special Electronic
   99.90  C101 Cu-ETP  UNS C11000  Electrolytic Tough Pitch, HC
Here's some properties of different alloys:
I'll look at more stuff later.
I'm leaning more and more towards scalloping the bowls...

Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 01:43:20 (PST)

Egeria: linguini with scallops -- Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:51:00 -0800

My friend Dr. J suggested last night to make the bowls scalloped -- this would take in the slack as they are made round.  I'll have to think about this -- it's a really good idea.  This would also make the bowl much stronger.  Getting it straight and symmetrical would be the hardest part.  Would people notice?  Maybe not. interesting idea.
Kiki -- forgive the Subject:  I'm a bit loopy today. :)

Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:51:00 -0800

Pond liners -- Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:32:00 -0800

Well, I had $300 in the budget for the pond liner, but in researching it today, I was dismayed...  [Partly this is due to previously pricing 25'x25' instead of 30'x30', since the bottom bowl is now bigger [it was 8' last year -- 625 square feet vs 900 now], and partly I was looking at the high-quality pond liner, considering that it's not being installed permanently, but instead will be put up and taken down multiple times, and it must resist tearing and holes.]
A 30'x30' 45mil EDPM pond liner ranges from $400-$500 -- and this does *not* include shipping.  How much is shipping?  Not sure, but the weight for a 30'x30' piece is an unbelievable 310lbs!  Egads!
Whew!  Realism.
Here's a lighter and cheaper solution.  In fact, I'm now toying with the idea of piecing it together out there.  Certainly not the best approach...
The budget is still a bit higher than I'd like [and quite a bit higher than LadyBee likes...] but there's little left to cut by now without cutting things like some of the 6 torches and stuff.  I'm trying hard not to do that.  There's still *some* wiggle room, some buffer, but I know how quickly that goes away...
I want to do a couple more passes, work/finish a schedule, make a sturdy model, and hand it all in maybe early next week.
Well, anyway, that's the update for today.

Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:32:00 -0800

Support stuff -- Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:37:00 -0800 (PST)

[notes added from phone conversation yesterday the 18th:
What can Burning Man help me with?
    the tiers will need 350 gallons
    the basin/pumping area will need 1500gallons
    WHY?  volume involves a squared term
        6'x6'x1'=36' cubic feet -> 288 gallons
        12'x12'x1'=144 cubic feet -> 1152 gallons
    1800 gallons right now
    I should be able to reduce this to around
    500-700 gallons by the end
    if not, this adds over $500 to the budget
[She didn't balk, and seemed to just let me work my own gig with the water truck folks.]
    storage of 200 gallons -- possible fill every day
    DPW: borrow a water storage tank?
    or, can I be topped off every day?
    don't *make* me chase the water trucks with a bucket! heehee! :)
    this takes $75 out of the budget
    do you do ship art to the playa anymore?
    this takes $1000 out of the budget
[Yes, they do, and I can be in on it.]
Propane service:
    I'll need upwards of 7 bar-b-q tanks filled each day
    or 2 15# tanks
    [I'll pay for the propane, of course!]
    this adds many hours to daily maintenance
[****Ask Crimson]
DPW: forklift/boom
    I will need help assembling the upper structure
    this is worth $1000
[****Ask Crimson]
DPW: fuel [naphtha] delivery
    can DPW pick up fuel in Sparks?
    [I'm still researching delivery by the fuel company itself...]
[****Ask Crimson]
    can I get power from the grid?
    we'll need 1200watts
    this is worth $1000
[I can get power, no problem]
    could I have up to 10 tickets?  [min. 6]
    we need safety people to depend on at the Event
    getting a bonus helps keep people reliable :)
    10 because we'll need 6 spotters every night
        it's exhausting work, so this will allow rotating shifts
[5 tickets per project -- I agreed that was fine]
    are Rangers available for safety from Burning Man directly
    [apart from me recruiting Ranges myself]  
[I recruit on my own
though rangers will want to know about it and its issues.]

Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:37:00 -0800 (PST)

Egeria: vacuum forming -- Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:59:00 -0800

BTW, I played around with vacuum forming.  I want to do more of it!  It's fun!
I was trying to make a matching bowl for the flowery clear bowls.  Didn't come out, but my setup is bad.  Might try again today.
Tap Plastics doesn't have thin enough plastic to do this well.  Shuh!  So I was reduced to picking out of my garbage for clear plastic salad to-go boxes -- which worked pretty well, actually.  I've found a place that sells those massive party assortment boxes, so if I get serious, this might be the cheapest resource for this plastic.
Just in case you had your own projects that could use molded plastic.  It's fun!

Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:59:00 -0800

Egeria update: form-thing and windows -- Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:54:00 -0800

We found a weird plastic round thing at Urban Ore last night.  It's just *perfect* for using to shape the bowl bottoms!
Now, how to use it?
I'm thinking a few things:
1) Lay the copper on it and hammer away
2) Attach it to a big lever with a weight on it and slam it down onto the copper.
3) Attach a weight to the lever instead and smash the weight onto the plastic
For the last two, the copper would rest on a stack of moving blankets so it can form into them.
But at least now we have something hard, that gives, that we can form over!  Yay!
Second, I got some clear picnic plates to use for the model.  They're a bit flowery now that I assemble it [and they didn't have a 3" size, of course] so I'm not overly excited.
*However*, they're clear, so I could just mask off the copper paint and have windows for free!
Which is what I did.
I didn't have a good flame test -- just a tiki torch kind of flame, which gave a round circle of light through the window.  I'm assuming [hoping] that fire-on-water will give a softer and much wider cone through the window and illuminate better.
But the cool thing is, the dancing flames will flicker across the fish shapes from above and from below.  And though I dislike that silly artsy-fartsy symbolic shit, it sounds good to people to say it makes the fish look like they're moving and they're wiggling to and fro!
It's also clear to me that the fish mouth flames must be over the windows so the light casts down on the fishtail below!
All in all, the windows are gonna ROCK!!  I'm excited to see them in motion!
I seriously need to do a large-scale test with fire-on-water just to see what the lighting might be like.  Ideas how to do this will be creative. :)
[First feasible idea that comes to me is to test this by doing it up-side-down -- make a wide field of flames, cut a hole in cardboard, and put things above it and take pictures and invert them...]
I'll show this stuff off at the meeting tonight!  Maybe we can do the above inverted lighting test...?

Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:54:00 -0800

Egeria: The Meeting -- Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:51:00 -0800

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:51:21 -0800
To: egeria list
From: Majo no Kiki
Subject: Egeria: The Meeting

Sorry I didn't write up the meeting last night.  I got in late and was quite brain-dead.
Let me give you a summary first, and you can ignore the details, if you like.
It went pretty much as I expected: showed them the budget, showed money being slashed off, until Larry got impatient and wanted to see the pitch and the model. [Jim was *completely* right -- I should have pitched first...  Lesson learned.]
Larry saw the model.  I gave my schpeel about Italy, Egeria [the Roman goddess of fountains], boats, fish, water, town center needs to be a fountain, people sitting on fountian walls, looking out on the cafes and the city at large, yadda yadda.  Larry liked the idea.  LadyBee pressed about the fish [which I totally expected] and I suggested I give her some sketches of fish I like.
One ominous thing is I asked if I can generally release that I'm doing the KeyHole, and Larry paused and said not yet.  I'm worried this means they stopped thinking of it in the KeyHole.  I sure hope not!  We shall see.  If this is the case, I think Larry will come around eventually.  This firefall *must* be the KeyHole piece!!
I left feeling about like I expected: they like it, LadyBee still wants design changes [and I don't want to bend on those], I have to cut the budget somehow.
End of story.
When I went in, it there was someone else waiting for a 4:00 meeting with her -- oops.
He and I chatted about his project -- there was no room to chat about anything else. :)  [He, like me, was so focused on it he could think of nothing else.  I did the bad-Kiki "I'll watch and see how long it takes him to figure out I'mm really cool..."  He didn't. :) ]
Interesting project, really massive: take an articulated bus [the bendy ones] and convert it to the Nautilus from Nemo.
LadyBee had been at home and came in for the meetings.  She'd gotten some sad family news, and was pretty broken up by the time she came in.
I made the guy go first, since I wanted to do some budget-work, and set up my model.  I also got to hear their talk with him.
I wish I could remember the stuff Larry said about the theme, but I'm too damn tired right now to remember.  It'll have to come out over time... :)
In my turn, I talked about the budget first, and, as I said, Larry wanted to hear the pitch, so we went back to the model [which I built in the neighboring cubicle.]  His first comment was "hm.  It's big..."
As I said, I gave my whole schpeel.  I talked the whole time to Larry, not LadyBee.  I told them whenever I do research on fountains, I come up with Italian fountains, and many of those have fish in them.  Once I talked about Italian fountains, Larry spun off on how the fountains are gravity-fed -- no pumps -- and the French fountains didn't and they broke down...and on and on -- cool stuff!  He dug the fountain idea.  And [important:] he dug the Roman fountain idea too.  LadyBee made her comment about the fish, and Larry said, "I don't mind the Mediterranean reference."   :)
LadyBee *clearly* doesn't like the European marble statuary style.  She even mentioned the David statue as example of what she doesn't like.  Egads!
I have an inkling that there's two competing views on the Burning Man theme this year: the port-city view of a Venice-like city [whether they know it or not -- piers, boats, fish...all of that evokes the European styling]; and some Japanese theme I don't really understand at all, but I've heard it come up twice, so I'm...confused.
Well, anyway, LadyBee asked what kind of fish I'm going to do, and I said, the typical kind -- big eyes, big lips, tails up...  She said something along the lines of "they need to be more modern."  Well, inwardly, I sighed [Larry wasn't backing me up] so I tried to figure how to make this work for us both, and I said, "why don't I sketch some things and send them to you?"
This is best because *I* still have control over the design.  I just won't send her anything I don't really like anyway.
Second, I'm a little dishonest: my plan is to go to Google and type "fountains Italy fish" and research every goddamn European, classical fish there is, draw three of them that are different and submit them.  [I'm kinda liking the idea of a Metropolis, art deko [just hinting] style anyway.  I think I can please us both.]
Third, if she doesn't like the fish, I'll gently argue that there's room for all kinds of opinions, and does it affect whether I get the grant or not, and if it does, then that's silly, but I'd be cheerfully happy I'll go back and work more on the stinking fish...
...and probably do the fish *I* want to do anyway. :)
Honestly, sorry to be so cynical, but I feel very strongly about the subtle distinction between *good* art and *I like it* art.  Very strongly.  And LadyBee should be very careful to make the same distinction -- ESPECIALLY because she's a person in power over yay or nay decisions on the matter.
...all this in case any of you were wondering if I was bending. :)
Anyway, that appeased her.
I kept the budget, as planned, and I'm re-working it now.  Some of the things I'm cutting will need some complete re-engineering [water blowing out of the bowl is an issue again, for instance.]  I'm re-engineering those now.  [Hence, my subconscious work from last night. :) ]
In general, I think it went well.  And I learned a lot of lessons.
Oh, I also mentioned the fact that I was designing each tier to function on its own -- so teirs could be used throughout the year as the project progresses, and after Burning Man and in the years to come.  She said she was glad I mentioned it because she had to make a press kit and would be adding it.
Lesson: make sure you cover all the important points of your project.
Well, anyway, that was the highlights of that meeting.
I'm going to make a web page of things I learned through all this.
Frankly, I asked for advice of everyone I knew.  And I got a lot of really *great* advice.  but most of the advice was wacky, like what, in particular, to keep in mind about submitting a *Burning Man-specific* grant, but little to no advice on actually what to DO.  No real, down-to-earth *practical* advice.  I got advice like, "pad your budget", but not things like, "tools, shipping, storage on-site, services you need for Burning Man are all things that should go in your budget."  The grant submission guidelines are just as sorta-useful.
Now, I know that grant-writing is a known quantity, but if you *don't* know what it's about, you have no where to begin.
I was totally and completely lost for a month, asking everyone I knew who'd written a budget to give me a sample of *any* kind.  It was Rachel that said, "just list the main items, like 'copper', then list the things under that that you will need, like 'tools'."  That was the key that unlocked everything.  Once I understood what the structure was, everything else fell into place easily.
I wish I'd had *this* kind of advice from the beginning.
This is the kind of advice I want to give to others struggling with the same issues -- "yes, but what do I *do*?!?!"
This also harkens back to my favorite job of being a beginning-level programming TA in college.  This is a long topic for another time, but basically, I gave my students extra work: they must submit an *outline* of what their program has to do *before* they write it and it's 10% of their grade, no matter if they turn in a blank paper with their name on it.  Far from being upset at the extra work, students actually *thanked* me for making them do it.  I still keep actual thank you cards that students gave me, if you can believe that!
Ask me about it sometime. :)  I was a hell of a teacher. :)
Okay, that's all!  I'll stop spamming and go back to my Egeria-only list. :)  I just needed the support...

Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:51:00 -0800

Egeria: DMI: reduce water -- Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:11:00 +0000

Here's my Daily Morning Inspiration. :)
    Too much water to fill the fountain
    Also, spiral stones will be cut out of the project
    Also, if stones are cut, we return to the blowing water problem
If we can raise the whole fountain up, we don't have to dig.
We can use cut 55gal drums *under* the pond liner to raise it up.
I'll have to make some designs on how this will look.  But thoughts from this are things like: we can drop pumps into barrel-wells so they're covered with water [reduce water needs by LOTS!!]; we can drop a propane tank for the top plume into a barrel well too [it will even be covered by warm water! -- no heating tank!]
The fountain will look more like the Oakland fountain here:
I had thought originally of doing this, but it seemed impossible due to weight.  But if I use drums -- esp if I cut them and reinforce them even more -- this can be done quite easily and cheaply!
This will also allow me *not* to cut the flaming stones!  [And it makes them *far* easier/cheaper, since they won't have to rise above deep water, etc, etc, etc..]
This probably makes no sense to anyone, as it's sleep-deprived ravings... :)  I'll send more info later...
Kiki -- going back to bed now... :)

Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:11:00 +0000

Egeria: model pictures are up! -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:24:00 -0800

I promise this is the second-to-last spam to this bunch of lists. :)  [i'll send you a summary of the meeting, then I'll shut up. :) ]
Here's the model I scratched together:
It's amazing what one can accomplish under pressure! :)
The thumbnails are enough to give you a good idea, in particular, the lighting pictures.  This should really give you a good feeling for what this will look like at night.
I'm glad I work with fiber optics right now -- the mini-flames look really great!
Okay, gotta print some stuff before I leave, find more sizes of paper plates [let the grocery store people wonder why I'm using a tape measure :) ], get copper-colored paint, and talk to some metal spinners in Hayweird...

Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:24:00 -0800

Artistic vision -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:26:49 -0800

Hi Kiki,
Ah, I so understand your quandary. I think back on college and remember all those crits having 15 other students tell me how my painting would be more successful. Yikes.
I think you should follow your instincts. Be strong, girlfriend.
And yet...
My mental picture of Egeria (I haven't seen any drawings or mock-ups) is a simple one. I appreciate ornate, but usually prefer minimal. (My cluttered house is another story.) I picture a stunning two-tier fire fountain with little embellishment. I worry that three tiers will be wedding-y. I picture the vessels that hold the water being as simple and perfectly beautiful as they can be. The fire and water are so primal, and the interaction between them and the participants who get to play with them are what make egeria. In my small mind. I wouldn't want fish or venetian ornament, even if it is dazzling, to distract from that pureness. (Also, if lots of other people will be doing that sort of thing, isn't that a good reason to NOT go that way?) Fire floating on water and spilling over the edge, and fascinated people interacting with it. Isn't that a great floating world? There is a beautiful falling fountain in SF inside Rincon Center that is ultra simple and ultra beautiful. Do you know the one I mean?
Okay, got that off my chest. I know that whatever you do it will be wonderful, the firefall has always been one of my favorite things ever. You didn't even ask my opinion and I hope I am still your friend. I have never met Lady Bee or Larry Harvey, but I've always thought I wouldn't like them very much. Sounds like she was incredibly insensitive on the phone. Yuck. But I may share some of her mental images. Then again, "beautiful" and "pure" have never been my strong suit. I'm pretty much stuck with "cute" and "whimsical"and just have to work them into my art somehow. So you should probably toss this email right into the recycle bin and fight for what you know is best.

Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:26:49 -0800

Egeria: [short] today's plans -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:13:00 -0800

Things look good today, actually.
I found paper plates at near the sizes I'm thinking.  These can be interchanged so Larry can see larger/smaller, one/two/three tiers.  [It's got to be at *least* 2, tiers and it's really got to be at least 9' for the bottom -- points I won't bend on.]  These will be spray painted copper.
I'm getting candles to simulate the lighting.  Six candles for the outer area lighting, and one for the top of the fountain.  The six I'm going to cut, but I want him to see it first to make it hurt. :)
And I even rigged up some scrap fiber optics to simulate the tiny flames at the base.  [Did you know I'm doing work for a fiber optic lighting company?  Glad I pocketed that trash!]  I used one of the solar lights we've been using for el-wire, which has an amber LED in it -- and it looks fucking *GOOD*!
The lighting really grabs you in the gut.
I'm also bringing a copper plate/bowl I have, so the feeling of real copper will capture him better.
And I'm going to write notes on a budget, so I can quickly wave my hand at it and say, "see?  I can make a bunch of money go, now for the plans..."
Thanx, all, for the encouraging words and excellent advice.  They're invaluable.

Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:13:00 -0800

QOTD: "How much less impressive...?" -- Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:06:00 -0800

From my friend Andrew:
"How much less impressive would they like you to make it?"
heehee! :)

Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:06:00 -0800

Egeria: Unhappy LadyBee... :-\ -- Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:29:00 -0800

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:29:52 -0800
To: Egeria list
From: Majo no Kiki
Subject: Egeria: Unhappy LadyBee... :-\

Okay, so I sent LadyBee what I had with the budget -- which had inflated with each new person I talked to...  [Propane for all-night illumination: so it looks like 35 gallons a night, so we'll need to buy a big tank.  And have a water bath for it to keep it from freezing.  And a heater for the bath.  An since it's big, it'll need to be away from the fountain, so it'll need long hoses.  And wood housing... and so on and so on...  Every new decision or issue seemed to be about $500...]
So I knew it was high.  But better to ask high and have them back down...    [Also the budget is actually pretty accurate.  Not much padding...]
Well, she balked.  That's Bad.
Actually, worse...
She said they didn't really *like* the design, and wanted something more "simple and modern."
Ouch!  I mean...Ouch!
Okay, well...
She went on to also say they couldn't fund me for what I asked for.  Not back down some, but really whack the budget.
Oh well.  I'm new to this.
So I gave myself some time to recover, and called back with a can-do attitude [as inspired by Jim's recent Berkeley dealings]:  "Hi, LadyBee!  *Yes*, we can scale this back [because she needs to hear that -- and because, of course, we can], and I also think it would be best to meet and talk face-to-face before we make any artistic changes [because I'm not going to just do what you say.]" :)  
I'll be meeting with them tomorrow at 4.
Here's my plan: discuss the *budget* first, until they're comfortable, *then* and only then, talk about the design.  I think the design-fear comes from the budget-fear.  Hopefully I'm right.  Hopefully by then I can get away with only a few design changes.
I mean, the fish statues cost near to nothing -- like, $175 -- and the spirals are actually *necessary* to the structure, to support the water, and also to hold it down in high winds.  So cutting these will have little effect on the budget.  The spirals, esp. cannot be cut.  Shall I change them to bars for ten bucks less?
The real cost is the scale.
So I'm going to look at things like making two tiers, and welding copper sheets together instead of wedges, and cutting a circle from that, and also cut out the basin area and the stones [but leave the outer wall]...
The cost comes from the infrastructure, not the prettyness.  Hopefully, we'll make a bunch of budget changes, and then make a few minor design changes.
The only part of the artistic vision that costs a lot is the copper, and I'm stead-fast on that issue.  Copper for steel will not happen.  [By taking away a tier, and by changing the way the pieces are fit together, we can reduce the copper by a lot.]
There's precedence for copper [The One Tree] and there's precedence for ornate [Gile's birdcage KeyHole piece last year.]  "Floating Worlds" means there will be a lot of Atlantis art, fish art, and so many boats there will be the feel of Venice, IMHO, tell me I'm wrong...
Remember, we're going for something like this:
I mean, "Egeria" is the roman goddess of fountains -- they couldn't've not known what I was planning...
So, okay.
Well, anyway, I'll be needing a stiff drink tomorrow after this meeting. :)
I don't know when the meeting will be over [4pm until...? maybe *5pm* untill...? :) ] but I'll probably wonder around in a daze until dinner, eat a burrito, then head to the Odeon after dinner and get drunk. :)  I could sure use a hug, an ear for ranting, a discussion about "tact", and an ear for more planning at any of those points. :)
Anyone join me?  My cell phone will be off for the meeting itself, but leave a message and I'll call you back, or I'll answer and you can find out where I am.   

Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:29:00 -0800

Egeria: propane use from the Flaming Lotus Girls -- Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:13:49 -0800

>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:13:49 -0800
>To: Egeria List
>From: Majo no Kiki
>Subject: Egeria: propane use from the Flaming Lotus Girls
>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:43:55 -0800 (PST)
>From: p o u n e h
>To: Majo no Kiki
>Subject: Fwd: SHIPWRECKPropane for torch (fwd)
>I want to make torches of various sizes -- just simple torches for
>lighting, nothing shooting or exploding.  [I know, it's dull. :) ]
>I was wondering if someone could give me a ballpark figure on how much
>propane I can expect to use.
>I want:
>1 2' plume
>6 1' plumes [maybe larger]
>and 18 2" plumes.  [That's inches.]
>Is this 100's of gallons for the week of Burning Man, if I run them, say,
>8pm until 4am?  Could the smaller torches [1' plume] run a reasonable night
>on one of those small camping tanks?  Could a group of 6 2" flames run
>reasonably on 1 camping tank?
>>>>>>> >>>>
>I can only really talk about the large propane tanks ( 5 gallon ). It
>depends on whether and what kind of regulator you use. You could use
>barbeque propane regulators which are nice as they are easy to find. The
>have a small orifice and limit the size of your flame. They also limit the
>amount of propane you use. I have not yet used them for burningman, but I
>will do next year. The only risk, is that the they might not allow enough
>propane to pass through for very windy moments.  I have also used normal
>gas regulators with a far larger orifice sucessfully. Like an acetalene
>regulator, which has the same threads as propane. But real regulators are
>very expensive.
>I don't really have a precise idea of how much propane you need, but I
>would say one or two tanks of propane a night for the larger flames. The
>smaller flames, definately use a camping tank. The tanks of propane can be
>preordered and filled at burningman, via dave x. You need to supply your
>own tanks, but he will deliver more propane daily as needed. for the five
>gallon tanks. So assume two tanks of propane a night, which is actually
>over estimating.
>The smaller flames, yes use a small camping tank. I think you will go
>through these things very rapidly. As a total guess, imagine using 3tanks
>for 18 flames, and imagine replacing these twice a night. So 6 tanks a
>I could be totally over doing my calculations. the best way to really
>know, is to create a sample torch and then see how long it lasts.
>You will get a problem with freezage before you get to an empty tank. ie.
>your tanks will freeze after two hours or so. So double the number of
>large tanks, and be prepared to switch them out every few hours, even
>though the tanks are not empty/
>you can call me on ###-POON to discuss this further, I hope this is useful
>I think a bigger problem for you than the amount of propane is the wiring
>and propane harnesses. I assume the torches will be spread out over a
>reasonably large distance. even a circle diameter 20 feet is large. So be
>prepared to spend money and time on creating harnesses.

Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:13:49 -0800

Egeria: weekly Sunday and Monday meetings -- Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:54:41 -0800

>>>Monday meetings:
Okay, it's becoming clear that I need to talk to a variety of people and think through some of these issues that are still left.  I think monday will be a good day, since this will force me to do sunday experiments/work, and nothing much of excitement goes on in the Bay Area on mondays, so it should be pretty free for everyone.
Let's plan for 7:30pm, every monday until further notice.
This week [ie tomorrow], let's plan to meet at the ShipYard.  Bring something to eat and we can talk while we meet.
Discussion topics:
The Proposal -- duh
Issues of construction
    filter the dust
    where to place the pumps
    how to form the bowls
    who will do what when
Other sources of funding
>>>Sunday meetings:
Less urgent right now, but I'll be planning to go to the ShipYard on sundays do experiment [for now, until I get money to start buying stuff, then work begins.]
I'm going to try to be at the ShipYard by 1, but I'm always late, and tend to be a slouch, so call me before you head over.  [Or, better, call me to *get* me to go over. :)  See?  I'm still at home. :) ]
Experiments to try:
Spill over tests
    try a small pump and see what width it flows
    see what angle the water flows out
    see how the head [height] changes these things
Keying test
    take aluminum sheet and try to keep some together
    take longer strips and key them together
Stones and fire
    place bricks in water, spaced apart
    see if the flames "shoot" like I've seen in other experiments
Propane usage test
    how much will the lighting torches use up?
    well, really I should just find this out by talking to
    someone who's used propane to make a torch
Call me if you want to come play tonight.
cell: 510-367-7556
PS Tonight I'm going to slump plastic sheet and attempt to make the model.  Tap Plastics sold me something too thick for my needs, so I'm going to go get something thicker.  Man, I hate dealing with them...

Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:54:41 -0800

Budget -- Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:36:00 -0800

Okay, I think I have a budget that I'm happy with.  For confidentiality, I have only the list of items up on the web.  If you really, really want to see the actual numbers, talk to me.  But in a lot of ways, they're actually meaningless, since the final number is what's important -- much of the cost of the parts hasn't been researched at all yet, just guessed.
I know I'll run over budget.  I just know I will.  That's the way of things.  So I'm going to try really hard not to.  Esp. since there's no money for labor on this project.  [I'll get a free ticket, so I guess I *will* get paid some amount for 6 months of hard labor. :) ]
Okay, I'm pretty happy with it so far.  Maybe a few final polishes before I submit it, but I think I'm pretty well done with this.
Now, on to the schedule...
Just wondering, how many people want to work on this project in any capacity?  [Construction?  On-site spotting and helping?]  Just trying to get an idea of what we've got to work with.
The terse schedule is to get the top bowl and some stones done by July 4th.  It will then go to the playa for fun. :)  The second bowl by end of July, and the bottom bowl and most of the stones by early August.
I know it seems like all the time is spent making the little top bowl, but all this time will also be spent researching parts, doing experiments, and going down dead-end roads.  If we get the top bowl done by July 4th, I think we're in the clear for being done by Burning Man.
After we get as far as the top bowl, everything else is pretty much simple grunt-work -- key together copper sheet, pour concrete, cut wood, etc.
Can we do the little top bowl by July 4th?  Well, in 1999, I bought the Cauldron bowl at the end of June.  [That was first, since everything else was determined by it.]  This means I constructed the Cauldron in a little over two months time [while working full time, even.]  We're supposed to get the money in April sometime.  Which means it's a little over 4 months time to do the top bowl with supplies, and there's even experimental work that can be done now without money.  So I say it's quite possible...
I'll probably start holding work days/weekends really soon -- and now's a good time to work so far from Burning Man.  Less stress and pressure.
Okay, that's the recent update!

Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:36:00 -0800

Egeria budget -- Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:16:00 -0800

Okay, I think I'm pretty much there.
I put up a list of all the items in the budget here:
I have some random sketches to put up too -- mostly thoughts about how to make the support structure.  I've got some really lovely ideas that incorporate spirals.
I'm starting to realize that we'll have to have a full support structure underneath.  I don't see how better to do this otherwise.  Something like 3-4 rings under the bowl, and struts along all of the seams [and maybe more] and maybe even some legs further out from the central support.  I'm a bit daunted by this, since, even if the rings can be taken apart, they will still be full sized rings, and these are difficult to transport.
I'm thinking of hiring a whole shipping container [Koke? someone else?] and haul Egeria up in it.  The bowls and rings should be able to fit diagonally.  [They will have to be supported during shipment too.]
So much steel will be heavy too.
And the stones.
But it's doable.  And I think making a full support structure underneath will be best.  And we won't have to be so careful with the upper tiers -- they can have fewer rings, or none.
I'm also thinking of laying plywood all around the outside, around the basin area.  What do folks think of this?  I would paint the plywood thickly to hold down the splinters, or maybe cover it with something like old carpet or astro turf, or other covering.  An old carpet and some artistically applied spray paint wouldn't be *too* bad...
I'm also toying with the idea of building a nicer looking deck-like structure, like the One Tree had.  This might be a bit more expensive, but will reduce the problem of splinters, and will look nicer.  Has anyone built a deck?  How expensive is it?  [If we go with a 3-4' wide deck, we might be able to find free wood pieces...  Any thoughts/leads?]

Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:16:00 -0800

Egeria: attaching wedges -- Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:31:00 -0800

BTW, I'm starting to give up on the idea of bolting the wedges together.
There's an old metal attaching method called "keying" this I'm starting to lean towards.
You take the two metals and cut slits down the edges -- like short fringe.  Then you bend one-up-one-down all along the length.  You put the two pieces together so the tabs are interlaced.  Mash the tabs down, and pound them flat, then solder or braise them together.  [Actually, I forget when you do the pounding -- before or after braising?  Before might make the tabs not lay flat.  After might weaken the braising...]  Keying is very strong, and also looks interesting.
Anyway, the artistic vision [read: wacky-ass, too-hard-to-build] that then flows from that is instead of cutting slits, you cut leaf-shapes and key using them.  The leaves would all bend up [inside the bowl] and the negative-leaf would bend down [the underside of the bowl.]  Brazing these with a brass braze would be pretty darn spectacular looking!
Now, I know already that keying a long edge together is problematic...getting it exact is difficult at best.  But if we mark carefully at, say, 1" increments, and mark them from a tape measure down the length [rather than one inch at a time, where errors accumulate] it might work.
This is another thing for me to try out.  In particular, keying *curved* pieces together.
A lot of fitting these wedges together is going to be difficult no matter what method we use.
And actually, I think making the small bowl will be more difficult because the curves are tighter, and the distances are shorter and less forgiving.
PS Thanx for letting me think aloud on this list.
Much of the design -- and thus the budget -- depends on what can and cannot be done.  I'm trying hard not to work myself into a corner by having to throw money at a situation...
The more I can think through now, the better, of course.
I have a habit of "viewing" the whole process of building from start to finish, as if it were a movie.  Some parts are still blurry, as if they are played through too fast...  But I'm getting to the point that I can see the whole thing in my head -- which means it can be done!  I'm excited!

Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:31:00 -0800

Egeria model -- Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:52:51 -0800

A bunch of folks wrote me back with some good ideas, and I just answered them, but thought it might be good to have the discussion here, to spark more ideas.  So here's some excerpts:
>I don't know a lot about your plans, but if you are looking for something to  
>build a model with, what about foam core board?  It's the stuff with  
>cardstock on both sides, and foam in the middle?  Or what about just carving  
>your whole design out of foam?  You could just cut pieces of it and use it  
>like blocks to build your sculpture.  I think you can get foam fairly easily.
The problem with this model [as with the fountain as a whole] is that the bowl shape is not an easy one to form...  So foam-core isn't really ideal.
Also, carving something thin is very difficult -- either you make it too thick, or you cut through...
I'm hoping for something that can be slumped with gentle heat, or laid up like paper mache.
I still have that fiberglass kit from last year, but that seems like overkill.  [But I may go with that in the end...]
>I do have an idea! Actually they sell this cool flexible copper stuff
>called ArtEmboss that can be used for anything from cards to photo frame
>covers to whatever. I've used it to make relief monograms and pages for a
>little metal book I never finished. I think it would be good enough for a
>visual model with using something else for structural pieces. It's about $4
>for two sheets at Pearl. It's really easy to work with and I think it comes
>in a couple weights.
This sounds good!  I'll look into it!  I do have some copper sheet of my own -- for roofs -- but it's thicker.  Heating it might make it soft enough, though.  I remember softening copper this thick and you could bend it with your fingers.  *Really* soft.  I was totally blown away.
I've been thinking of using soft material as a form.
Let me explain.  I've been trying to figure out a way to form the copper sheets in to the bowls for the actual fountain.  I've been thinking of things like carving a wooden form out and laying the copper into it and driving my *car* over it to mash it in.  [Saves the arms... :) ]  But then I got this wacky idea to lay a bunch of *blankets* down instead of wood, and lay the copper over *that* and drive the car over.  This would give a nice smooth curve, and I could add blankets and add blankets to make the curve deeper and deeper...
I'm going to give this a try with some left over aluminum flashing from the Cauldron.
Also, I talked to a metal worker the other night.  He said to just *heat* it until it slumps into the form.  Hmm.  [He works with Dan Das Mann, so he'd know.]  He also said to wear a respirator *and* goggles, since your eyes can absorb bad fumes too!  Egads!
I need to have a talk with Dan Das Mann sometime soon...
>Wow I wonder if it
>would be possible to make a working miniature - pleeeze don't shoot me that
>just popped into my head.  Maybe it wouldn't be too hard.
There's a couple reasons I wouldn't want to do that.
The main one is if it leaked or tipped over, that would not leave a good impression...
Also, the fountain isn't *designed* to be small -- where would you put the pump, for instance?  The water's too shallow.
Table fountains dry up and take maintenance.  I don't want to leave them with that burden -- again, bad impression.
And lastly, I think the impact wouldn't equal the amount of work.  It would be quite a bit of work to make it flawless.   
I just want something that looks great, but doesn't have everything -- it's *gestural*.  Something they can toss around, set on top of stacks of paper, it falls off, with no damage, and always have the same impact as when I brought it in.

Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:52:51 -0800

Budget -- Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:29:00 -0800

Still struggling with the budget...
But I just settled on a pretty complete list, and just plugged some rounded-up and somewhat inflated numbers in, and came out with a number at the low end of the range I want to ask for...  This is good!  So I can inflate numbers more, and add items, and get the number up, since so much is unknown...
Anyway, just wanted to let you all know that progress is being made, albeit slowly.
Paula offered to come over and make a model with me.  Jim said this was very important since not only can they see what the plan is, but it'll float around the office and infect their brains. :)  Really, he said it's good for them to have a constant *thing* so they can see it in their City plans.
But make it out of *what*??  I'm strangely at a loss.
Paper mache?  Friendly plastic?  Fimo?  I can *paint* it copper so that's no big deal...
I tried to find a set of paper plates that was about the right ratio, but no luck.  Tried building it out of aluminum foil, but it mashes too easily, and might get crumpled accidently [and this would not leave a good impression! :) ]
Any thoughts?
Other updates: Our friend Snook found a place that has a "French Wheel" [which can bend shapes like I need] in Petaluma somewhere.  So I need to follow up on this.
Other thoughts: The biggest hole in the budget right now is propane.  I have no clue whatsoever on what kind of propane use some of these ideas will use up [eg lighting -- 6 torches around the perimeter.]  I hope to call Dan Das Mann and ask how much The One Tree used.  Maybe talk to Sue Glover too.
Anyone else have experience?  How much would, say a 1' plume use in an hour?  A 2' plume?  Ten-twelve small 2-3" plumes?  No clue, no clue.  [A know Sue sued up a TON in the Helix last year.  The Ring of Fire itself used some ungodly amount too...]
[And I have a half a mind to just use naphtha for the lighting and other flame needs...  Good energy-to-volume ratio.]
Okay, that's it for now!  More later as plans finalize...  [Not much work until we get *money*!]

Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:29:00 -0800

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