Re: Weight, water, volume -- Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:41:00 -0800
Re: Grant help (from LadyBee) -- Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:12:58 -0800
Grant help (to LadyBee) -- Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:55:00 -0800
Re: Description (from Loren) -- Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:18:12 -0800
Description -- Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:09:00 -0800
Weight, water, volume -- Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:06:00 -0800
Oakland fountain -- Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:28:38 -0800
Re: Egeria quick update -- Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:14:00 -0800
Egeria quick update -- Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:48:00 -0800 (PST)

At 11:31 AM 1/28/2002 -0800, pepperjack wrote:
My brief look on the web found the following.  It gives the reason why
heating the copper anneals it, and working hardens it.   
  
>A few words on annealing may be appropriate here. Sometimes it is necessary to soften tool
>steels which have been hardened by the previously described processes. Commercial items
>such a old files can be used for all sorts of things if only they could be softened first so that
>they can be machined. This is quite a reasonable proposition but it requires some care. It is
>most important that the cooling process after heating to the transition point be very slow, if
>this is not so then upon re-hardening it is very likely that the metal will fracture in use. In the
>case of the old file it can be heated in a coal fire which is then left to burn out overnight. The
>metal can be machined and then re-hardened by heating, quenching and tempering again.
>Another example is the common necessity to anneal work-hardened sheet copper in the
>process of making a model locomotive boiler. In this case what was happened is that
>distortion of the metal has caused a coarsening of the grain structure which if not addressed
>will eventually cause the metal to fracture. To correct this situation it is necessary to heat the
>metal to bright red heat and rapidly quench (i.e., the self-same process used to harden
>carbon steel). However, in the case of soft metals like copper what happens is that the
>crystalline structure is returned to a very fine grain, increasing ductility and enabling it to be
>bent easily once more. It can be confusing that the same process that hardens one metal
>softens another but it becomes clear when you know the reasons.  
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/t-ht.htm
  
  
It looks like it's also a function of the alloy.
http://www.precisionsteel.com/Tempers.cfm?SubSection=5
http://www.matweb.com/copper-alloys.htm
  
*
  
Wow, Richard!  This is some really great info!  Thank you so much!!  I tried searching the web, but just had no idea what to search *for*.  "Copper anneal" produced little information that was useful in this context.  Ug.
  
A quick aside.  I wasn't sure what terms to use, and I think I may have used terms incorrectly.  I think "temper" is the word I should have used instead of "anneal."  I think of annealing as making something a uniform hardness by using heat slowly -- eg annealing glass after bending by putting it into a kiln, annealing metal by letting it cool slowly.  Annealing is used to relieve stresses in a material, I think.  Not necessarily hardening or softening it.  Please correct me.
  
Anyway, this is really good info:
  
>Another copper strengthening method is precipitation hardening.  The process  
>involves quenching a supersaturated solid solution from an elevated  
>temperature, then reheating to a lower temperature (aging) to allow the  
>excess solute to precipitate out and form a second phase.  This process is  
>often used for copper alloys containing beryllium, chromium, nickel, or  
>zirconium.  Precipitation hardening offers distinct advantages.  Fabrication  
>is relatively easy using the soft solution-annealed form of the quenched  
>metal.  The aging process can be performed using relatively inexpensive and  
>unsophisticated furnaces.  Often the heat treatment can be performed in air,  
>at moderate furnace temperatures, and with little or no controlled cooling.   
>Although the heat treatment times are not critical, many combinations of  
>conductivity, ductility, impact resistance, hardness, and strength can be  
>obtained by varying the treatment times and temperatures.
  
But doesn't really give step-by-step instructions...  Nor really which alloy is best to start with.
  
And above, it says:
  
>However, in the case of soft metals like copper what happens is that the  
>crystalline structure is returned to a very fine grain, increasing ductility  
>and enabling it to be bent easily once more.
  
I've worked with copper before and learned how to heat it to cherry red then toss it in water -- it's really cool, too, since you get blood-red stains all over it, as well as rainbow blues and greens and yellows and all *sorts* of cool colors!!  The copper, indeed, gets *very* soft.  So soft you can bend it in your fingers.  So soft, it won't even hold it's own weight and will simply sag while you watch.  It's *amazing* how soft it gets when you soften it this way.
  
I want to work with copper like this for the fountain, but how do I get it back to hard?
  
I was in a metalsmithing class at Penland Art School -- true paradise!  I want to go back there so bad!  We made silver stamps using steel flooring nails.  I made one with my initials so I could stamp it into silver jewelry I made.  We would soften the steel nails as mentioned in these web pages you sent -- we'd heat them to cherry red then cool them very, very slowly, by burying them in insulating gravel.  Hours later, we'd come back and we could saw or drill or file our shapes into the nail heads.  Then we'd harden them.  As the teacher taught us, we'd heat them carefully until a sheen of oxidation turned anywhere from yellow to brown -- but no hotter! no other color! -- and quench it quickly in water.  After I did this with my little stamp I made, I noticed a small burr I'd missed while shaping it, so I took my file to it to take it off....and the file didn't work *at all*!  I was utterly stunned.  The hardening *did* work!  Amazingly well!  I was completely convinced, from a gut-level, what softening did and what hardening did.  So amazing.
  
I want to do this with copper.  But copper doesn't work like steel.  If I try to harden it by quenching it, it will get soft instead.  So soft, you can practically mush it with your fingers.  Copper gets *very* soft!
  
I'm worried about making it soft, and then having the weight of the water rip the very holes out around the bolts!
  
I can make copper soft.  But I *must* make it hard again to be functional.  Otherwise, I'll have to just not ever soften it.
  
I'm hoping it's a method of heating to a certain temp then cooling slowly.  We can easily build an earth kiln and do this with propane.  Not really that big a deal.
  
BTW, I have a friend who might know of a place that can two a double-roll in the copper, so this whole discussion might be moot.  [I don't know what the technical term is, but I want to put a curve both in the "up" vector and the "radial" vector, to be a geek and use polar geometry. :)  I want to make a bowl shape, and you can't do that with traditional rollers which roll flat sheets, which can make ripples but not circles.]  If we can do that relatively cheap, we're in business!!
  
Other news: my friend Loren just dropped off a 10' satellite dish!  I'm going to inspect the pieces and see if it gives me any ideas on how to build the wedges...  Already it's sparked a lot of thoughts!
  
Kiki

Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:41:00 -0800

From: "LadyBee"  
To: "Majo no Kiki"
Subject: Re: Grant help
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:12:58 -0800
  
HI Kiki,
  
I've attached our grants guidelines for you. please get your proposal in
asap. thanks ! call me if you want to come in.
  
LadyBee
Curator, Burning Man

Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:12:58 -0800

I'm writing up some information on the big firefall, Egeria, for the KeyHole this year.
  
Man, am I jazzed and excited!  The project is going to be so amazing!
  
But I've never written a grant before.
  
I love writing, I just need to know how you want things presented, what info you need, what you don't care to know for now, how detailed you want it.
  
If it's not too much to ask, if you have old grants I could look at to get an idea, that'd be invaluable.
  
Do you have time I could drop by and just *talk* about it?  Go to lunch?  [Or my phone is ###-###-#### anytime.  I don't seem to have yours or Larry's office numbers.]
  
Thanx in advance!
  
Kiki

Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:55:00 -0800

From: "Loren Carpenter"
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:18:12 -0800
To: Majo no Kiki
Subject: Re: Description
  
Wow!
  
It just keeps getting more grand and wonderful.
  
p.s.  I disassembled my 10' satellite dish into a neat pile
    of aluminum frames and screen panels.  Know anyone
    who can use it?  I'll deliver anywhere in the Bay Area.
    ALL the bolts were severely corroded and several broke
    off.  I will include the used bolts so that the new owner
    can know what to get.

Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:18:12 -0800

I just wrote up a long description of Egeria.  I was going to just send it out, but it got too big. :)  So I put it up on the website.
  
http://www.burningideas.com/firefall/egeria/description_020125.html
  
I actually changed a bit of stuff around and added a page of links for The One Tree -- it's amazing how *few* pictures are out there!
  
Anyway, have a good read.  It's long, but relatively complete.
  
Comments most definitely welcome!
  
Enjoy!
  
Kiki -- am I crazy or what?? :)

Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:09:00 -0800

At 02:08 PM 1/17/2002 -0700, Town Crier wrote:
>I love the copper idea, but is the sheeting going to be attached to a frame
>of some kind?  Because a 10' tier, even if it's not very deep, is still
>going to be pretty heavy with water.  Even if it's only 2 feet deep in the
>middle (and the depth in the photo looks larger than 20% of the width), I
>get 101 cubic feet for the tier, or over 800 pounds of water.  I found the
>volume formula at:
>
>http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SphericalCap.html
>
>Seems like you'll probably have to weld together a steel frame for it (more
>weight!), but I might be able to help you with that in a few months!  -TC
  
  
Yes, yes, yes.  Volume and water and I are all very good friends. :)  Approx 8 gallons per square foot, and approx 8 pounds per gallon.
  
I am, indeed, planning a steel frame.  Upright walls along the seams of the wedges.  [I'm still working on a full-length write-up of exactly what I want to do...]  These walls will have intricate shapes cut into them [probably something curly and art nouveau] while still having enough structural integrity.  The tiers will be lined up, so the supports will also line up and...well, *support* eachother. :)
  
I'm even toying with the thought that the bolts would simply go into tapped holes in the steel walls...
  
Yes, copper is weak, and will need a good support structure to hold it up.  It certainly won't be able to on its own, not to mention with seams in it too!
  
Kiki
  
PS Copper is opposite from steel: to soften steel, you heat it red hot then let it cool very slowly; to soften copper, you heat it red hot and quench it; to harden steel, you heat it to a particular temp [determined by the color of the oxidation; I learned to heat it to yellow or brown sheen] then quench it; to harden copper, you do...what?  Anyone know?
  
Copper is a weird metal...

Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:06:00 -0800

This is a photo explanation of my choices for fountain size -- mostly for Jim, but for all of you as well.
  
Jim says my plans for Egeria are too small -- 8' diameter bottom tier, 6' diameter middle, 4' diameter top.  He very well could be right, however, and at the bottom, I describe a way I figured out to make the fountain larger without being strictly limited by the maximum size of sheets of copper.
  
Here's some pics:
  
http://burningideas.com/firefall/egeria/gallery1_sketches00.html#January 7
  
Unfortunately, there was no one around to take pictures with people in it for scale [note the garbage can at the left in fountain_all.jpg], but by my reckoning, the dimensions look to be about this:
  
6' single tier
10' upper basin
20' lower basin
50' courtyard
  
If you measure using the fountain width as a 6' unit, this looks to be about right.
  
Hmm.  So I think I should now go photoshop this image into what I'm proposing...hang on...
  
Okay, so I'm uploading some thrown together images of what I'm shooting for here.  I updated the gallery too, so you've probably already looked at them by the time you read this far...  
  
But basically, my argument is that there's enough *stuff* around the firefall that it's plenty big enough to make a statement.
  
The argument holds because the City of Oakland also agreed, since their wimpy single 6' tier was plenty for this otherwise massive fountain in their nice little park.
  
Yes, the Cauldron is dinky on the playa -- hardly noticeable.  But Egeria has enough fan-fair to make it spectacular.  [Not to mention that I want torches to ring it at about the distance of the surrounding courtyard benches -- 50'.  Yes, plenty.]  If I didn't think adding an even wider ring of benches too were utterly insane, I'd want benches as well.
  
----
  
Now, how to make it bigger anyway -- and I do think 10' or 12' is a much better size than 8', so this is good.  [My concept pictures are 10', 6', 3' -- which I think looks good!]
  
I thought I was limited by two sheets of copper to make the wedges, without getting really complicated trying to fit them into the sheets: think about how you'd cut 6 wedges for an 8' circle from two 4x8 sheets of copper -- easy, cut wo half-circles and cut the wedges.  Now think about cutting 6 wedges for a 10' circle.  Half-circles don't fit.  MUCH more complicated...
  
But I realized I could put a circle of copper in the middle and cut *truncated* wedges.  Not only does this mean we can make the bowl much bigger, but it also solves the difficulty of having 6 points meeting in the middle, and the sealing nightmare that entails.
  
Anyway, so I think I've convinced myself into making the bottom tier 10'-12'.  Which makes the bottom basin area a bit bigger too.  [But maybe not *that* much bigger -- 25' maybe?]
  
Also, depending on how the wedges eventually fit in the sheets of copper, we could probably get away with asymmetrical wedges to get the most bang for the buck...  [Maybe I lost you on that part, though...but don't worry.  It makes sense in my own little world. :) ]
  
[I'll start working out how to cut the wedges from the 3x8 sheets David found and get a ballpark on the number of sheets we'll need...  But even 10 sheets being a little over a thousand sounds within budget, don't you think?]
  
Okay, I'm done.  I think we go somewhere between me and Jim -- make it *some* bigger, but don't make it 16' in diameter like Jim suggested.
  
Comments?
  
Kiki
  
PS I strongly recommend you all visit this fountain.  It gives an excellent sense of scale for what we're building here.  
  
PPS When I call for a quote on the copper, I'll see also if they can make the sheets wider...  Or even fabricate some of what we want already.  That might be worth it depending on price.

Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:28:38 -0800

>> > place that sold large sheets of copper, but I don't believe it...  Ah, I  
>am  
>>  
>> size I could find was 36"x48" or so, and nothing with a better price.
>
>I take it back:
>
>Copper & Brass Sales (TMX)
>http://www.thyssenmx.com/
>800-926-2600
>
>They will deliver 3x8 054 sheets (yes, that's .054 thick).
>(delivery is no charge if more than 70 pounds)
>
>1 sheet of 054 is 60 pounds, and the number of sheets effects the cost:
>
>10 sheets @ 1.91/lb  == $114.60 per sheet
>20 sheets @ 1.74/lb  == $104.40 per sheet
>
>I found another company with only a slightly higher price ($143), and
>they only had 7 sheets of 050 in stock right now.
>
>Dave++
  
Well, cool.  That's a bit better then $250/sheet.
  
But, yes, I went to their site, and they are, indeed 36"x96" -- 3x8, which seems weird to me.  But metal is a different world from wood, I guess.
  
Well, I sure hope I won't have to piece together sections.  Welding copper is a big fat bitch, so I understand, since it warps very easily.  And welding along a long strip will mean esp. bad warping...
  
Ug.  Ug.
  
[How structural is *soldered* copper?  I have a feeling "not very", but that might be an option anyway, if done right...  There's also some ancient methods to joining sheets of metal that I know of...]
  
Kiki
  
PS When I bought the 4.5' diameter top bowl for the Cauldron -- it was *much* bigger than the 2' I was envisioning -- I knew I was getting in over my head...
  
Holding tightly to the vision of using copper has also got me a bit scared...
  
But, hey!  I got the Cauldron done, right??  We can do this!
  
[And it's going to be so damn beautiful too!!]

Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:14:00 -0800

Quick update:
  
Talked to Jim Mason some about my plans:
  
3-tier fountain
bottom tier is 8', middle 6', top 4', propane jet out of the top
"windows" in the copper bowls
    so firelight casts on the supporting sculptures
20' diameter basin area to catch the water
wall around the basin for people to sit on
bricks [spiral stones] covering the bottom
6 [or so] torches around the perimeter to illuminate
  
Jim thinks 8' is not big enough.  I say the stuff around it *makes* it *much* bigger, and so it's fine.  But I'm thinking hard about his advice.
  
Talked with him about helping me write a grant proposal.  Michael Sturtz says he'll also help me write a grant.  And Teiwaz suggested simply talking to LadyBee directly to find out what she wants.  Jim says have lunch with Larry too.  I plan to do all these things in the next few weeks.
  
Talked to Dan Das Mann, who did The One Tree in 1998 [and the Three Faces in 2000] about copper.  I have my heart set on copper because The One Tree was a major inspiration to me -- it was a copper tree that rained water and burned fire!
  
He gave me a place to get copper sheet.  It's not cheap: 3x8 sheet of 050 copper [does that mean 0.050"?] is $250/sheet.  Yikes!  So I'm on the lookout for cheap copper sheet...  [Dan Das Mann said that was the *only* place that sold large sheets of copper, but I don't believe it...  Ah, I am probably naive. :) ]
  
[I need to double-check on the 3x8 size of the sheet.  Since most construction materials come in 4x8, this seems an odd shape...]
  
Kiki

Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:48:00 -0800 (PST)

Modifications to the script and pages by Kiki.